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IG Command Squads - Scoring units?
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Old 21 Mar 2007, 22:06   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Continued from Anton's hijacked 'H.S.O's & S.O's - Brains or Braun?' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Guard Or Go Home
A IG command squad is an officer with a free squad. They are not a retinue, the squad is not a scoring unit

When looking at scoring units in the back of the BGB it says an IC with a retinue and a transport is considered 3 separate units for scoring purposes.

1) The Character NOT a scoring unit
2) The Squad YES if above 50% NO if below 50%
3) The Transport NOT a scoring unit

The JO, SO, HSO is an officer with a free squad and is NOT a scoring unit. The officer cannot choose to leave his command squad like another character can. He is attached to it until he is all by himself at which point he becomes a IC
Surely whether or not you payed for the squad is only relevant when victory points are determined by the value of the unit? The point Falstead made is that in Alpha missions value is not considered. There's nothing to say the command squad itself is an independent character, nor is there anything to say 'free' units are automatically considered non-scoring.

I see how they may not be classed as a retinue because they are not selected as such, but because they are free does not alter the fact that they have a physical presence and function as a standard infantry unit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 21 Mar 2007, 22:39   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

I see your point Tom but the IG command squads have a limitation that no other army has. The officers cannot leave the squad like any other character can until the squad is wiped nor can the squad join another squad.

It is as though the Command Squad (Officer + Guardsmen) are an Independant Character of themselves and thus are not a scoring unit in any level of mission
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Old 21 Mar 2007, 23:06   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Guard Or Go Home
I see your point Tom but the IG command squads have a limitation that no other army has. The officers cannot leave the squad like any other character can until the squad is wiped nor can the squad join another squad.

It is as though the Command Squad (Officer + Guardsmen) are an Independant Character of themselves and thus are not a scoring unit in any level of mission
But that's just not true. Generally speaking, ICs with retinues cannot leave them - Take Space Marine command squads for example. Only ICs that have joined a unit during the course of the game can come and go as they please, but you assume that because the cost of the officer's staff is included in his cost, they count as part of him. The codex defines the officer and his men as two separate entities in the 'Character' section of the command squad unit entry:

Quote:
The Officer is an independent character. However, he must remain within two inches of his command squad at all times and may not leave it. If it is wiped out, the officer reverts to being an independent character.
Maybe this is not enough to define the command squad as an official 'retinue' (which is debateable, with no concrete reasoning either way as far as I can see), but if it's seperate to the officer then it needs to be something, it can't simply be a non-entity, which I think puts it firmly in the catagory of 'non-vehicle unit' and, therefore; scoring.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 21 Mar 2007, 23:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

But how many points then is the officer worth Tom? If you are right then only the 4 guardsmen are scoring units and we are not given the point costs for them, nor are we given the original point value for the officer.

You can't say they cost the same as normal guardsman (6pts) because you have to take into account that the fact they can take 1 heavy and 2 spec wepaons or 4 spec weapons into the cost value of the squad. The fact that they have a special ability to all be upgraded to veterans and then further specialized would affect the cost of the squad to.

This is also why I believe they are non-scoring units. In all other armies you know the cost of x (character) and y (retinue) and therefore can put the right points into victory conditions and VP.

There is no mention of that with the guard , and since we can't arbitrarily pick how many points the officer is and a guardsman we can't really claim it as a scoring unit.

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Old 22 Mar 2007, 01:14   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

im pretty sure they count as a scoring unit. as long as the unit of 4 guard is at half or more. as for how much.... weeeeelll ive never thought of that... usually the whole squad is alive, or theyre all dead.
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Old 22 Mar 2007, 01:37   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HailTheRuss
im pretty sure they count as a scoring unit. as long as the unit of 4 guard is at half or more. as for how much.... weeeeelll ive never thought of that... usually the whole squad is alive, or theyre all dead.
But here is the problem, independant charaters are not scoring units and the Dex says IG officers are IC. So if the 4 guardsmen are scoring units you would have to subtract the officer point value from the squad but we don't know what the officer costs and what each of the 4 guardsmen cost. Since you can't put a points on it and we know IC are not scoring units the unit can't be counted as a scoring unit....this is how I have always played unless someone shows me an FAQ to say otherwise.
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Old 22 Mar 2007, 07:34   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Guard Or Go Home
Quote:
Originally Posted by HailTheRuss
im pretty sure they count as a scoring unit. as long as the unit of 4 guard is at half or more. as for how much.... weeeeelll ive never thought of that... usually the whole squad is alive, or theyre all dead.
But here is the problem, independant charaters are not scoring units and the Dex says IG officers are IC. So if the 4 guardsmen are scoring units you would have to subtract the officer point value from the squad but we don't know what the officer costs and what each of the 4 guardsmen cost. Since you can't put a points on it and we know IC are not scoring units the unit can't be counted as a scoring unit....this is how I have always played unless someone shows me an FAQ to say otherwise.
We've already covered this; the Guardsmen themselves are only worth the points you've spent on them directly. We've already established that the officer is an IC and as such does not count towards the value of the squad as a scoring unit. We've also discussed the fact that a unit's value is irrelevant in certain missions; all that matters is whether or not it is a scoring unit. Nowhere does it say that units with a value of zero are automatically considered non-scoring, it doesn't matter how you got it, only that it's on the table. Why are we retreading old ground here?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 22 Mar 2007, 07:53   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

It isn't retreading it. I don't know anyone who plays Alpha missions to begin with, in fact every tournament I have played is Gamma/Omega. I guess we can agree to disagree on this matter except similarities to other armies and the fact that a command squad does not list what percentage of the squad a officer takes up or the guardsman.

I think Wargamer spoke about this in a post a while back but I can't find it. Anyways, when I play I don't count them as a scoring unit.
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Old 22 Mar 2007, 11:21   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Hm...I have always used IG command squads as scoring units. And so has every other Guard player I have ever seen. It has never been a problem in the tournaments I have played in...
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Old 22 Mar 2007, 13:16   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: IG Command Squads - Scoring units?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Guard Or Go Home
...a command squad does not list what percentage of the squad a officer takes up or the guardsman.
The rulebook tells us a unit's strength is measured by the total number of wounds in the case of mutli-wound units, but since ICs don't count that only leaves the Guardsmen. Even if they did count, the Guardsmen would still be in the majority for the combined number of wounds, so it's more a case of an officer attached to the Guardsmen rather than the other way round - He's the minority; the bulk of the unit consists of non-independent characters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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