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Which Doctrine should I drop
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 03:45   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Which Doctrine should I drop

I have picked five doctrines for my propsed guard army, but have thought again and want to add grenadiers. they are a sort of ww1 german themed, like krieg only without the trench warfare and with some ww2 panzergrenadier warfare.

-Rough Riders
my regiment like cavalry

-die hards
-hardened fighters
my regiment like cc

-close order drill
the regiment likes formations and order and the like

-Carapace armour
they also like heavy armour

so I want to get grenadiers in but all the doctrines are important to me what should I do?

I did think of getting rid of close order because I would be going with a troop choice that can&#39;t use it if I take grenadiers, but I want to use inf platoons and grenadiers for my troops choices so that cuts that.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 04:08   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

i would cut either hardened fighters or carapace. Don&#39;t cut CoD, one of the things most useful to conscripts and infantry platoons which you will indeed use.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 04:10   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Well, since your regiment is a cc army, I would suggest not taking Greniders in the first place. They are barley better than a normal gaurdsmen in combat yet cost nearl twice.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:14   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

either hard-F or Carp.... hard F is not that useful for massed grunt army - since if you are outnumbered in CC, you are probably hopelessly dead anyway. but it is nice for fluff - for a heroic command group or something similar, and doesnt really correlate to a WWI style army of confusion, wall-of-gunfire, and numbers... it is more for guys who expect to be outnumbered and fight to the bitter end... Carp - just because it is SO prohibitively expensive, you would do better to lump in some more bodies into that Close Order Drill. combining massed close-order line-of-rifles infantry with cavalry on the wings is very AmericanCivilWar style btw - which was kind of a technological preview of WWI - just without the tanks - and not quite as many machineguns. the cavalry was used as light cavalry, who would ride up into breaches and engage with firearms - only charging when it looked as if an enemy position was about to break already - so you may want to try using your roughriders as fire-n-run guys instead of the usual lancers - if you want to get nice and themey.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:34   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

ddrop the hardened fighters doctrine. If you fighting marines your still hitting them on 4+.

So unless your fighting a load of tau thee isn&#39;t much of an advantage.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:42   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
either hard-F or Carp.... hard F is not that useful for massed grunt army - since if you are outnumbered in CC, you are probably hopelessly dead anyway. but it is nice for fluff - for a heroic command group or something similar, and doesnt really correlate to a WWI style army of confusion, wall-of-gunfire, and numbers... it is more for guys who expect to be outnumbered and fight to the bitter end... Carp - just because it is SO prohibitively expensive, you would do better to lump in some more bodies into that Close Order Drill. combining massed close-order line-of-rifles infantry with cavalry on the wings is very AmericanCivilWar style btw - which was kind of a technological preview of WWI - just without the tanks - and not quite as many machineguns. the cavalry was used as light cavalry, who would ride up into breaches and engage with firearms - only charging when it looked as if an enemy position was about to break already - so you may want to try using your roughriders as fire-n-run guys instead of the usual lancers - if you want to get nice and themey.
Centurion, seriously, abbreviating things like that is just annoying. Whether it&#39;s your intention or not it makes you look like you&#39;re just doing it to look cool. We get a bag on when people come on here and start using &#39;text talk&#39;, and this is much the same. You&#39;re a good typist, so just say Hardened Fighters and Carapace.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:45   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas O Dalyth Montau
-Rough Riders
my regiment like cavalry
Does not justify the Doctrine.

Quote:
-die hards
No justification given = auto-drop.

Quote:
-hardened fighters
my regiment like cc
Does not justify the Doctrine.

Quote:
-close order drill
the regiment likes formations and order and the like
Does not justify the Doctrine.

Quote:
-Carapace armour
they also like heavy armour
Does not justify the Doctrine.

So, you should drop all five.


I&#39;ve said it before, Doctrines are meant to represent the elite! You don&#39;t get Close-Order Drill because "oh, we stood in line once". Seriously, here is how I would create an army using these Doctrines...

Evadian 1st:
Raised from the feral world of Evad, the Evadians are born and bred soldiers. They train with a sword from the moment they learn to walk, and almost all have spilled blood before puberty. The Evadian first have not taken well to Imperial Indoctrination. Most consider the Lasgun something to club your enemy with, not shoot him. As such, the Commissariat worked to provide "Ogryn" style weaponry; heavy, rugged autoguns that could take as much of a beating as these soldiers could give!

The Core of the Evadian First is the Knights. Five-thousand of the Eight-thousand recruited soldiers that make up the regiment were taken from Evad&#39;s knight orders. Having fought against the feral Orks since childhood, and raised on tales of their "Warrior-King" Alyx (a local deity, sanction-rating pending), these men go to war in thick, heavy Platemail, offering astounding protection for its design. The material itself is a rare alloy known as "Blue-Steel", giving protection comparable to Carapace armour.

This Knight-core provides the regiment with other strengths. The Knight Orders have bred warhorses for generations, and train them by chasing rabbits, and hardening their natural instincts by exposing them to the roar of cannon and musket. The result is a muscular beast that will bear a fully-armoured Knight headlong into the carnage of war without fear.

Whilst the Cavalry provides a fast-hitting force, the bulk of the army is formed into Platoons. These Platoons fight much the way they did on the battlefields of old; formed into blocks of men. They advance with shields raised, the second rank firing through the gaps in the shield-wall, only breaking formation to charge headlong into the press. Most infamous of these men is the Tabberriek Company; a force of some three-hundred men recruited from the city of Tabberriek. These warriors have sworn to die rather than take a step backward, no matter the foe. To this day, that oath has been upheld.

Doctrines:
Rough Riders - Knight Cavalry, recruited from soldiers who have battled on horseback for generations.
Die Hards - These men know only war, and will not shy from it.
Hardened Fighters - Trained with swords from birth.
Close Order Drill - Regimental fighting.
Carapace Armour - Platemail.


Background first, Doctrines last.
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 10:45   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Am i the only one who has picked up on this,

if you want to drop a doctrine for grenadiers then make it Carapace armour, Grenadiers lets you get stormies as troops right? they come with a 4+ save already so why bother if your going for a stormie based army (if your only having 1 or 2 squads of stormies for troops grenadiers really isn&#39;t worth it).
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 14:32   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
either hard-F or Carp.... hard F is not that useful for massed grunt army - since if you are outnumbered in CC, you are probably hopelessly dead anyway. but it is nice for fluff - for a heroic command group or something similar, and doesnt really correlate to a WWI style army of confusion, wall-of-gunfire, and numbers... it is more for guys who expect to be outnumbered and fight to the bitter end... Carp - just because it is SO prohibitively expensive, you would do better to lump in some more bodies into that Close Order Drill. combining massed close-order line-of-rifles infantry with cavalry on the wings is very AmericanCivilWar style btw - which was kind of a technological preview of WWI - just without the tanks - and not quite as many machineguns. the cavalry was used as light cavalry, who would ride up into breaches and engage with firearms - only charging when it looked as if an enemy position was about to break already - so you may want to try using your roughriders as fire-n-run guys instead of the usual lancers - if you want to get nice and themey.
Centurion, seriously, abbreviating things like that is just annoying. Whether it&#39;s your intention or not it makes you look like you&#39;re just doing it to look cool. We get a bag on when people come on here and start using &#39;text talk&#39;, and this is much the same. You&#39;re a good typist, so just say Hardened Fighters and Carapace.
sorry man. yeah i do it to look cool. No seriously though, I often don&#39;t have the time to type out everything as precisely as possible since my housemates are always scrabbling to get on myspace or something every time I sit at this desk for more than 5 minutes. I guess I figured that so long as it can be understood, abbreviation isn&#39;t such an offensive thing. If you notice, I don&#39;t always go back and capitalize everything either. Is this line of nitpicking at all relevant to the thread or do you like, need a hug or something? bad day?

---- Sooooo.... back on topic(s?):
I would hardly say that doctrines represent &#39;the elite&#39; as was just recently posted. Granted, a couple of them are - like hardened fighters, die hards, sharpshooters, etc. (ones that represent actual talent, grit, and not just a bit of training). They just mean that an army has a particular angle in one direction or another. Any group of peasants can be given sharp sticks and trained in an afternoon or two to stand in a cohesive line and take advantage of their wall of bodies side to side. This is probably why Close Order Drill is so cheap it&#39;s free. If doctrines were so elite, then why does every figure range GW has come out with since the old generic Guards of 15+ years ago have doctrines listed for them in the Codex? even the CADIANS use doctrines and they always get flak for being too generic. In my opinion, &#39;generic&#39; armies with no doctrines (&#39;Vanilla&#39; some of you call them) would be a rare and exceptional sight - probably part of some ultra-force in service of the Terran High Lords who have access to EVERY possible troop type - garnered from many different worlds - lots of bureaucratic red tape - and is such an intermeshed frankenstein monster that any individual differences in troop quality become washed out. Hence lack of any defining doctrines. Since every planet has its own flavor, every planet should have it&#39;s quirks.
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 15:51   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Which Doctrine should I drop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
---- Sooooo.... back on topic(s?):
I would hardly say that doctrines represent &#39;the elite&#39; as was just recently posted. Granted, a couple of them are - like hardened fighters, die hards, sharpshooters, etc. (ones that represent actual talent, grit, and not just a bit of training). They just mean that an army has a particular angle in one direction or another. Any group of peasants can be given sharp sticks and trained in an afternoon or two to stand in a cohesive line and take advantage of their wall of bodies side to side. This is probably why Close Order Drill is so cheap it&#39;s free. If doctrines were so elite, then why does every figure range GW has come out with since the old generic Guards of 15+ years ago have doctrines listed for them in the Codex? even the CADIANS use doctrines and they always get flak for being too generic. In my opinion, &#39;generic&#39; armies with no doctrines (&#39;Vanilla&#39; some of you call them) would be a rare and exceptional sight - probably part of some ultra-force in service of the Terran High Lords who have access to EVERY possible troop type - garnered from many different worlds - lots of bureaucratic red tape - and is such an intermeshed frankenstein monster that any individual differences in troop quality become washed out. Hence lack of any defining doctrines. Since every planet has its own flavor, every planet should have it&#39;s quirks.
Score one for ignorance.

A mob of militia with sticks could not benefit from Close Order Drill. Firstly because they would be Conscripts, and secondly because they just aren&#39;t good enough. Compare, please, your example to the two "famous" regiments with this Doctrine: Praetorians and Mordians. Both these armies adopt the simple policy of "form up and fight". Come hell or high water, the only way they will break formation is if they drop dead. Your "militia with sticks" would brick it and run the first time a shell hits.

Cadians... umm, maybe you haven&#39;t been playing long enough to learn their background, or maybe you just didn&#39;t bother. They are the best. There are few regiments equal to the Cadians in terms of fighting ability. If a Cadian can&#39;t field-strip his Lasgun by age 10, he was born on the wrong planet! That is why they get Sharpshooters, along with the rest of the Doctrines.

Undoctrinated, or "Pure" Guard, represents Guard as it is meant to be; a fighting force so vast and uncompromising that any individual variation simply doesn&#39;t count enough to bother with. They can also, however, represent the mainstream Guard regiments, forces that aren&#39;t quite the Top Guns of the galaxy. In other words, 99% of Regiments in existence.
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