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Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 03:22   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

I have a standard Guard force but have been thinking about mechanizing the army. The problem I am seeing is how the mechanized doctrine is used. Every infantry squad must take a Chimera which means 5 man command squads with Chimeras being half empty and at least 2 of them being required.

The other problem is that for 1 chimera you can get almost 1 1/3 more guardsmen and the Chimera isn't a scoring unit. It ends up being a lot of points for vehicles that are carrying half empty squads, non-scoring units and limiting the guard strength of numbers.

Mechanized Guard almost limits any heavy weapon squads as the point cost of 6 guard with heavy weapons and a chimera is more then a LRBT. It makes almost all anti-tank work either Sentinels and str 10 demo cannons.

Is mechanized guard an effective and competitive army? If so what what would a tournament army look like.

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Old 12 Mar 2007, 04:56   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Heya,

Personally, I don't see it nearly as competitive as other mechanized forces (Sisters for example, Skimmer based for example, even Marines for example). The reason is price of transport, weapon load, requirement of moving no more than 6" in order to still use weapon load, which means a penetrable vehicle with only A12 on the front, or a vehicle that costs nearly 100 points that is being used like a rhino and popping smokes after a full move. Inside of all this, are units that are only BS3, have no armor to speak of, not even a good load of weapons (more Str3 en masse) and don't survive assaults even, and on top of that, have average leadership and expensive means of buffing that (and of course, weak access to powerful combat weapons, like power fists in your typical squads, making assault very much a clincher against many targets). Add to this that each vehicle is blocking LOS to those behind it, you end up with a very thin array of BS3 weapons and ordnance, with very little reliable anti-tank beyond an ordnance shell, or a lucky BS3 lascannon shot (at the cost of not using your ordnance no less).

It's not like Sisters, where you get a few Rhinos for ~220 points, to deliver upwards of 40 power armored BS4 Str4 bolters into range that are near fearless with unmodified Ld9 and the ability to get AP1 on wounds of 6's both in shooting and assault for virtually the same cost as storm troopers. Instead, you would pay nearly 400 points for the same thing vehicle wise with Chimeras, with upwards of the same 40 models, but this time, 5+ saves and Str3 weapons and Ld8 unless you buy an expensive vox network.

It's really apples and oranges when you look at what Mechanization accomplishes for some infantry, and what it really just doesn't do for others.

Drop Troop Guardsmen work because it gets the weapons into range to fire, without the near 100 point tag to get them there. You just scatter, arrive, if in range, shoot. Done deal. That works. But mechanization requires so much to be right, and you just can't ensure all your guns to be in the right place at the right time, and let's face it, a few Str3 shots only go so far, let alone the BS3 plasmagun or flamer or melta that you have. You're putting more than 200+ points into a few very weak shots and no survivability can be expected from a squad like that once they're delivered that pitiful peppering (pitiful by comparison to the cost of what it gets you).

If Mechanized was still attempted, I would look into using Veterans and Junior Officer units as much as possible--due to weapon load/accuracy. If that means having a Troop that isn't mechanized, well, so be it. There's your lascannon.

Cheers,
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 06:17   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

That doesn't sound like the standard use of mechanised units.

If you use them as battletanks you are bound to get kicked as they have the same number of vehicles as an armoured company, while having a armour of 12 instead of 14. At the same time they make terrible transports as they are still pretty vulnerable, guard are terrible in assault and they are expensive for their role.

Think about them like this:
For the cost of 2 squads you can get 3 heavy weapons.
Chimera: Heavy bolter
Multilaser
Platoon: Lascannon
Plasma
180 pts
2 Squads : 1 Lascannon
1 Plasma
: 1 Heavy Bolter
1 GL
173 pts

So while they might be a bit more fragile, they can dish out a hell of a lot of firepower.

If used correctly they can be VERY competative. Perhaps with some deepstriking sentinals in tow.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 14:40   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Heya,

Quote:
If used correctly they can be VERY competative.
Would you mind explaining that then please? Competitive is not synonymous with firepower. A mechanized force that doesn't revolve around a ton of Chimeras is going to be more competitive than one using Chimeras. The original question was concerning the doctrine mechanization which would indeed require a lot of Chimeras to hit the board, so unless it was a 2,000 point game, the other force selections would be very limited. There's multiple ways to go about mechanization obviously, from armored company to simply filling up on fast attack and heavy support and then taking minimal non-scoring chimeras in the Troops & HQ selections; but then there's the mechanization doctrine which makes you take more chimeras than perhaps is a good idea for `competitive' play. Fire power is one thing, but investing a massive chunk of points into non-scoring vehicles (vehicles which cannot fire if stunned I might add) is not an easy thing to just brush aside and call competitive just because you get more heavy weapon per point access.

Cheers,
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 15:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

What about combining mechanization with a couple of other doctrines?

For example Mechanization, Grenadiers and Veterans

Take 2 or 3 grenadier squads with Chimeras as troops. They'll be more useful than guardsman because they can jump out of a tank and fire either 4 very accurate plasma shots, or 2 accurate melta shots, and they have a better save so they don't die as fast. Also since they don't have heavy weapons they don't lose out by moving and shooting.

Same thing with veterans in chimeras, they can pack 3 special weapons, though they still suffer from the standard guard paper armour.

For HQ you can take a nicely tooled command squad, or something cheap with a few special weapons. An attached sentinel squad could provide some nice anti tank firepower.

For Fast attack and heavy support hellhounds and leman russes can fill out these choices, with maybe one more sentinel squadron.

Overall a list something like this:

HQ - Junior officer, 3 guardsmen with plasma guns, 1 medic
Chimera w/ multi laser, heavy bolter, extra armour, smoke launchers
200

3 Sentinels w/ autocannons
150

Troops

8 Grenadiers w/ 2 plasma guns
Chimera w/ multi laser, heavy bolter, extra armour, smoke launchers
203

8 Grenadiers w/ 2 plasma guns
Chimera w/ multi laser, heavy bolter, extra armour, smoke launchers
203

Elites

8 Veterans w/ seargant, 3 melta guns
202

8 Veterans w/ seargant, 3 melta guns
202

Fast Attack

Hellhound
120

Hellhound
120

3 Sentinels w/ lascannons
165

Heavy Support

Leman russ w/ 3 heavy bolters, extra armour
160

Total: 1725

I'm not 100% sure on all the points values since I don't have a guard codex here and its been a while since I read mine, but you get the idea. Something like this would have a fair bit of firepower, and lots of armour and some maneuverability. However you're quite lacking in bodies, so as guard armies go its quite fragile
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 15:37   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Falstead,

Aside from Grenadiers, the Veterans can go a long way as well to helping certain aspects of this force. That and allies have a big thing to offer as well. Land Raiders could be added to this force for example, up to two of them via allied options. But it's the deep striking Veterans via Drop Troops that would help out loads in the anti-tank department with their ability to deepstrike with plasma and/or meltas. All those tanks means plenty of places for Improved Coms. Grenadiers help limit the surplus Chimeras filling up that Troop to help avoid the `mechanization' doctrine.

Example,

HQ1 - J.O. with Melta/Plasma [deep strike]
Elite1 - Veterans with Meltas/Plasma [deep strike]
Elite2 - Veterans with Meltas/Plasma [deep strike]
Elite3 - Veterans with Meltas/Plasma [deep strike]
Troop1 - StormTroopers + Chimera
Troop2 - StormTroopers + Chimera
Fast1 - HellHound
Fast2 - HellHound
Heavy1 - LemanRuss
Heavy2 - LemanRuss/Demolisher
Heavy3 - Basilisk

Lots of wiggle room to change up vehicles, but keeping an emphasis on scoring vehicles, mobile firepower, and taking anti-tank away from the vehicles would be a good start to making a mech company that could move, shoot, and score, without just being stunned and left sitting in their own dust.

The problem with Chimeras is that a stun means no shooting. No-scoring and no-shooting is a bad thing for a single D6 roll on a chart. Alter it up so that at least the vehicles score while stunned, that helps. That and other vehicles can get more firepower for the list than the Chimera. The Chimera in the end is really there to block LOS to the other vehicles (to help alleviate first turn destruction) and fill compulsory, as well as supply some firepower if possible, but otherwise, simply run up and throw smokes to cut off some anti-tank shooting towards you, or simply to close channels, etc.

Sentinels can be helpful. In a list that is packing a lot of high armor and big guns (Russes for example), the Sentinels tend to take a second fiddle position to being shot. That gives them time to unload autocannons or multilasers. I would not put lascannons on them at all.

The final issue is escalation games. But, that's where Improved Coms allows us to get most of the vehicles on the board on turn two.

Cheers,
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 21:40   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Sure, mech guard can be viable, it just needs to be carefully crafted. As stated, you should then try to minimize useless units and Chimeras, maxing out your heavy vehicals, and avoid bottlnecks in terrain.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 23:16   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas'O GeekyGator
Sure, mech guard can be viable, it just needs to be carefully crafted. As stated, you should then try to minimize useless units and Chimeras, maxing out your heavy vehicals, and avoid bottlnecks in terrain.
Chimeras are the only transport option for a non-drop troop Guard army. That being so, you can't have a mechanised force without them. You could have lots of tanks, but that's not a mechanised army; it's an Armoured Company.

[hr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Dakari
Despite popular belief, Mechs are pretty competative, if given proper circumstances. Nice open terrain is one.
I don't buy this, it's no use to just say mechanised Guard armies are competetive. That's not an argument, you need to give reasons why you think that is so. You mentioned open terrain being advantageous to such an army, but you do need to qualify such a remark. How does open terrain work in the favour of a mechanised army? If you can see them, they can see you...and AV12 doesn't hold up well to AT fire. You might be able to inflict a lot of hurt on the enemy with all those heavy weapons if you get first turn, but half your army will be shaken, stunned or burning the moment your opponent gets to shoot back. Furthermore, little cover means it's easier for distant heavy weapons to hit that soft AV10 side armour facing.

You also mentioned how a lot of mobile infantry can be intimidating to new players. Well that's all very well, but if your bark is worse than your bite then it makes no difference how scary you are - you're still going to get turned inside out by most other armies at close range. IG have no reason to close the distance except to claim objectives in the closing turns when the big guns fall silent and all else is dust and ruin. I'm with Mal on this one.
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 03:40   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

<sigh>
We are the guard. Firepower translates into victory pretty easily. Sure there are other factors, but you work around them like any other list.

Here's what I mean
Pros:
  • They Bring More Firepower to the Board
  • They Increase Mobility
  • When Chimeras blow up (and they will) block LOS and provides cover.
  • Can form a AV12 "WALL" that can be used to tie down lesser enemies (ie Marines with bolters) while you shoot like hell.
  • Immune to Morale (or at least the chimeras are)
  • Can split your army into two elements without worrying about morale (as above)
  • Avoids enemy assault (either through tank shock, or pulling back infantry)
  • Wrecks can Block enemy movement ;D

Cons
  • More fragile
  • Half your list is non scoring
  • Can block your LOS
  • Can provide cover for enemies
  • All of your troops (well, GIs) are forced to have them.
  • Can't combine with most CC doctrines
  • Expensive
  • Add your own

It's in how you use them.
Don't use them as a normal SSAFH, and remember they aren't an armoured company either. Don't be afraid to split the chimeras from your lines and use them as a mobile scout force.

Remeber the "GOLDEN RULE OF MECH": Infantry target the Tanks and the Tanks target the Infantry.
If you want I can list reasons for this, but this isn't a tactica, so there you go....

Your infantry command squads aren't a problem. Load them up with weapons that will complement the role of your infantry (Anti-tank) and use them as shock units supporting them.

Throw in some hellhounds to confuse the hell out of your enemies (infact give your command chimera a Heavy flamer/heavy flamer loadout to really confuse )

Don't just stand there, when the enemy get too close - MOVE.

Deepstriking sentinels are just as effective as StormTroops, so drop them in for some rear armour shots (I suggest multilasers, against Av10/11 (aka rear armour) they are fantstic and don't need to be so close as say a melta) See here: Sentinel Options pg 2

Oh, and for an excellent tactica on the application of Mech Guard:Cheesethief's Mechanised Tactica
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Old 15 Mar 2007, 12:07   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Is Mechanized Guard a viable tournament List

Complete mechinisations a waste most chimeras cost around 85pts each when upgraded!, as malv and that explained taking some grenadiers with chimeras is much better, the only sort of tactic i could think of that works for mechanised is a static firebase cause chimeras have good troop masing guns and you squads can take anti tank, moving chimeras is chancy because marines (all types) and necrons can hit you side armour at 24 with bolters/gauss weapons, and dont even get me started on heavy bolters and autocannons
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