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Quantity has a quality all of its own
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 02:11   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Quantity has a quality all of its own

So I was thinking. Theres objectives in this game its not all stand there and fire till the last man falls and even the toughest armour fails sometimes. Its surely an epic undertaking and imperial fire resistant jackets may need to be selected from the armoury for suggesting forgetting about tanks but the incredibly low points cost and resultant sheer number of dice rolled from an all infantry army makes me wonder.

With carefully selected heavy weapons thrown in to knock out the inevitable but more often few heavily armoured targets there are you could field and insane amount of basic guardsmen. Used as a cityfight army the high amount of cover also negates a lot of the cross no-mans land under fire issues and also lets those squads with grenades wreak some real havoc. Deep striking stomies also offer flexibility around a lack of mobility.

OK, I have just watched enemy at the gates again but hey I love the idea of sending them wave after wave and what army can possibly aspire to the deisgn ethos of the guard more, it is after all why we get commisars.

So as rare as guard amies are has anyone ever seen an army like this played, how did it do and if it failed why, where and how. Discuss and remember there are untold billions of them after all no-one will miss a division or two
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 20:39   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

*coughs* Its my guard all the time. I just don't like the Leman Russ from a game play point of view.

I often turn up to a battle with 100+ troopers and conscripts. You see the thing with a massive footslogger army is that you can't be killed fast enough unless your opponent has an obscene amount of pie plates or heavy bolter's to chew up your troops.

The biggest problems for a large army like this is the deployment and movement stage to allow your units not to get in the way of each other. Additionally the large numbers draw out larger games into a number of days (longest ever for me was about 3/4 days, however that was a team game and we had a location where we could lock the army up overnight.)

The heavy weapons are not a problem at all. Storm troops or Vets with meltas are much better because you can just hide them with a normal squad screening them until they get close and run forward and pop that tank. Thats is if you got to the tank. Particularly if you have no overt AT power then your opponent will think you missed something from your list and move those vehicles into the fray, rather than hiding near/in cover. That aggressive move ends up in the tank dieing quicker.

In my local group I'm a master of the guard I don't know victories to defeat ratio because I never took note. I would say I win about 5/7ths of the games I play with my guard. I find that my friends who I play against Chaos, Tau and 'nid players are rather good and in a balanced fight it can go either way. *Bows before Lee's 'nid horde* (Yup, his is MASSIVE!).

Finally asking for a bucket for the dice is very fun...
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 21:41   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Indeed, all infantry Guard armies are nasty. I usually go half and half with infantry/armour, but that's just my preferance. My friend uses all infantry, and playing him is hell. An obscene amount of bodies missile launchers and heavy bolters.
It slaughters anything ;D
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 22:50   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Winter
Indeed, all infantry Guard armies are nasty. I usually go half and half with infantry/armour, but that's just my preferance. My friend uses all infantry, and playing him is hell. An obscene amount of bodies missile launchers and heavy bolters.
It slaughters anything ;D
Do you think that sort of army would be boring to use though? I'm worried that when I finally finish my Elysians I'll hate using them. I've got a large number of aircraft both because I think that's what Elysians are all about and because I think I'll need some spice in the army due to the lack of conventional vehicles.
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When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 00:37   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

its always fun to go to one or another extreme with your army idea - but a bit of everything will get you better results over time.

i like all-infantry stuff... phalanxes of lasgunners, mounds of corpses, all that stuff - and yes - i totally agree that forcing ludicrous amounts of dice rolling will result in almost anything going down to the humble flashlight hordes. what they cannot do is mess up vehicles - so you have to toss in some AT. other than that (and the formidable amount of painting - and crowded deployment zones) you will have a sicko lasguard army by keeping it nice and bare.

i gave a bunch of lasgunner infantry krak grenades and i remember my tau opponent's look of disbelief when he realized and asked me "wait? ALLof them have krak grenades?" as i wiped out his nice hovertanks who so foolishly overlooked the obvious with a bunch of dumb grunts hitting from every direction at once. That could only ever work once, as he will be more careful to use his skimmer advantages in future... but at the time it was priceless.

cheaper version than that is to stick a meltabomb veteran in each squad just to make sure the bad tanks die, while you force all those saves again and again with your wonderful lasguard.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 18:11   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
...i gave a bunch of lasgunner infantry krak grenades and i remember my tau opponent's look of disbelief when he realized and asked me "wait? ALLof them have krak grenades?" as i wiped out his nice hovertanks who so foolishly overlooked the obvious with a bunch of dumb grunts hitting from every direction at once. That could only ever work once, as he will be more careful to use his skimmer advantages in future... but at the time it was priceless.

cheaper version than that is to stick a meltabomb veteran in each squad just to make sure the bad tanks die, while you force all those saves again and again with your wonderful lasguard.
Hmmm...I suppose a meltabomb is much the same as a Meltagun most of the time: 6" range (charge range) and 4+ to hit (against vehicles moving at normal speed). The drawbacks are that it's not AP1, is unlikely to hit fast moving vehicles and can't touch things further than 6" away after movement. I suppose these things are offset to a certain degree by the fact your opponent is unlikely to spot it lurking in the squad unless he looks really closely, and that a stationary vehicle can be hit automatically. I'll have to consider that one, it sounds like a great tactic.

Krak grenades though? Really? In my experience, by the time Guardsmen get within charge range they tend to look a little thin on the ground. I don't figure this would be all that effective against most vehicles unless you can get at the back armour with what few men you have left; is this not correct? It seems like a lot of points to pay for what you're getting. :-\
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 18:29   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Ahh... yes, the good ol' days, when I first started 40k, heck, wargaming as a whole my first army was Guard.

Every week I would buy a box of Cadians, paint them in that same week, and get more the next week. Within a few months I had 200+ Cadians, and yes I won most of my battles because my opponents couldn't kill all of my Guardsmen quick enough. The only downside is that it takes an obscene amount of time to take out, deploy, move, shoot and even assault with a mass infantry army. :sadnshocked:

If you have the cash, the inspiration and the ability to paint a shit load of models, then go for it.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:07   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

to Tom Norman's reply: topic morphing into grenades here...

the krak grenade approach is good at encircling, but really far more difficult to pull off than is worth the XX points - because the chances that you'll have that many left not otherwise engaged or blown up is miniscule - but if they aren't looking and don't move fast, and accidently end up feeling nice and indestructable right next to your little grunts, it is kind of fun. Tau fishes were the easy kill because he rolled em up close as he was deploying, the hammerhead took considerably longer.

another question for you - unless i have assumed it wrong - the AP of a meltabomb shouldnt be relevant since they only attack vehicles with armor values, not armor saves. am i wrong on this?

the Mbom is a far more points efficient version of the krak tactic since it has a good chance of penetrating hit, and the V-sarge gives you that extra leadership. Krak grenades were more part of a theme army - 'mad bombers' - that had demo charges, frags, kraks, m-bombs, and all that nonsense at the expense of all those points being thrown into tanks who would have been easy kills for his 2 Railheads. i did actually assault fire warriors all over the place too with the frag wielding lasgunners and chopped them to bits. its kind of funny being the aggressive melee combat player for once. but hey, they're Tau, they snap like twigs.

The only problem, as you pointed out, is that i lost a LOT of guys getting close enough... and after the fist 3 tanks got blown, (1 by demo early on, and 2 by krak mobbing on the same turn) he had the last one stay well clear of my horde, so i could never get a hit in after the initial shock. still its a fun little card-up-yer-sleeve. i would advise using the v-sarge with the m-bomb armament as it really doesnt eat into your army points so much if you just want to do the nasty surprise hit.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 21:52   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
...unless i have assumed it wrong - the AP of a meltabomb shouldnt be relevant since they only attack vehicles with armor values, not armor saves. am i wrong on this?
Glancing hits scored by AP1 weapons are automatically upgraded to 'penetrating'. This gives meltaguns outside of 'melta range' an equal chance of scoring a penetrating hit as a strengh 9 weapon, albeit without such a weapon's capacity to deliver glancing hits on a lower armour penetration roll. All melta weapons have AP1 except the Meltabomb...wierd huh? :huh:

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I'm definitely upgrading my Elysian Sergeants and sticking Meltabombs to their belts now. I could represent them with stowed demolition charges, but then I'd have to make my opponent aware of them before the game and that'd defeat the object. :shifty:
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 14:35   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Quantity has a quality all of its own

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
...unless i have assumed it wrong - the AP of a meltabomb shouldnt be relevant since they only attack vehicles with armor values, not armor saves. am i wrong on this?
Glancing hits scored by AP1 weapons are automatically upgraded to 'penetrating'. This gives meltaguns outside of 'melta range' an equal chance of scoring a penetrating hit as a strengh 9 weapon, albeit without such a weapon's capacity to deliver glancing hits on a lower armour penetration roll. All melta weapons have AP1 except the Meltabomb...wierd huh? :huh:

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I'm definitely upgrading my Elysian Sergeants and sticking Meltabombs to their belts now. I could represent them with stowed demolition charges, but then I'd have to make my opponent aware of them before the game and that'd defeat the object. :shifty:
i think we're supposed to tell them if they ask anyway. im kind of used to people not bothering to ask. just tack on a grenade, shave it so it doesnt look like a pineapple and paint it bright red-n-yellow, and if they dont ask 'hey what's that?' it serves them right when you detonate it
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