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Grey Knight Allies?
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Old 25 Feb 2007, 23:45   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Grey Knight Allies?

I'm new to the Guard and thinking of taking some grey knights as allies to fight assaults for my men. Any advice on this or other units to fight in an assault would be great. Thanks!
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Old 26 Feb 2007, 00:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

There's not much to choose from I'm afraid, the only other worthwhile assault units are Ogryns. Rough Riders are more of an offensive unit; they're good for taking down key heavily armoured units like Space Marine Devastator squads. After that they're just cannon fodder.
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When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 26 Feb 2007, 03:30   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

a cheapo JO squad with shotguns or ccw/laspistol plus a flamer or two can actually make a decent dent if you get the charge... lots o dice = lots o chances for someone to fail a save. and they dont cost much. just position them right and make sure that you do the charging.

as far as i have seen... augmenting your army's drawback lack of good assault with allies is seen as kind of cheesy poor sportsmanlike stuff... sure you CAN do it, but whether or not you SHOULD is a different question... it really depends on who you are expecting to play and how competetive they make their armies. it will be more effective, but it takes a bit of imagination stretching to rationalize it in any kind of fluff, game after game.
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Old 26 Feb 2007, 06:19   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

how do allies work anyway? ???
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Old 26 Feb 2007, 10:16   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
as far as i have seen... augmenting your army's drawback lack of good assault with allies is seen as kind of cheesy poor sportsmanlike stuff... sure you CAN do it, but whether or not you SHOULD is a different question... it really depends on who you are expecting to play and how competetive they make their armies. it will be more effective, but it takes a bit of imagination stretching to rationalize it in any kind of fluff, game after game.
Hear, hear. One of the best things about most armies is that they have at least one weakness, so you have to play to your strengths, exploit your enemies weaknesses and find ways to compensate for your own. Drawing on the strengths of another army to do that just isn't in line with the Spirit of the game. By all means field Grey Knights now and then, especially when fighting chaos, but I agree with Centurion that they shouldn't be made a staple of your army.

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Originally Posted by shaso_montyr
how do allies work anyway? ???
It seems to be a common misconception, presumably perpetuated by word of mouth between inexperienced gamers, that any Imperial forces may legally be fielded together as allies. This is not so, but certain unit types from codex: Witchhunters and codex: Daemonhunters may be taken as allies within most incarnations of Imperial army (the particular armies are specified in the codices) and vice versa.
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When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 27 Feb 2007, 15:48   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

Roughriders are far superior when facing Heavy Infantry IMHO, you've got a fast unit (potentially reaching 24" in a single turn) with power weapons of descent strength to combat most troops and too boot they're incredably cheap points wise for what they can do (and of course come from your own codex - your opponent would be quite within there rights to say no to Grey Knights). The only possible downside is they compete against Sentinels and Helhounds.
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Old 27 Feb 2007, 17:26   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Col.Gravis
Roughriders are far superior when facing Heavy Infantry IMHO, you've got a fast unit (potentially reaching 24" in a single turn) with power weapons of descent strength to combat most troops and too boot they're incredably cheap points wise for what they can do...
Bit of a one trick pony though aren't they? Once those hunting lances are gone, all you've really got left is fast moving cannon fodder.

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Originally Posted by Col.Gravis
...(and of course come from your own codex - your opponent would be quite within there rights to say no to Grey Knights)...
I don't get this statement. While I would frown upon the use of Grey Knights to plug a close combat deficiency, you certainly don't need your opponent's consent to field them. ???
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 27 Feb 2007, 22:12   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

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Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Bit of a one trick pony though aren't they?* Once those hunting lances are gone, all you've really got left is fast moving cannon fodder.*
If the Lances work they've done their job and you wont need anything more then a 'one trick pony' that said once the units charged its still useful enough - you might for example go around tieing up other small non-combat units, take an objective, or if you've spent a few extra points on say Meltabombs for a Veteran Sergeant go tank hunting (though personnly I keep them cheap and cheerful generally fielding 5man Lancer units) - if the Lances dont work its a mute point.

In either case they can perform much the same job as extremely expensive unit of Grey Knights (or indeed assault HQ) at a fraction of the points cost meaning you can have them in greater numbers or better support them with units to fulfil other roles.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Col.Gravis
...(and of course come from your own codex - your opponent would be quite within there rights to say no to Grey Knights)...
I don't get this statement.* While I would frown upon the use of Grey Knights to plug a close combat deficiency, you certainly don't need your opponent's consent to field them.* * ???
My apologiese that statement was somewhat rushed on my part and gave an inaccurate message. It is correct you do not need your opponents consent to field such allies - though theres a fair percentage of gamers who do frown on the use of allies. Theres also the matter of tournament play which often strictly prohibits there use entirely - better in my mind to learn to use your own tools rather then borrowing those of another list to fill a percieved and in my opinion over exagerated gap in the IG order of battle.
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Old 28 Feb 2007, 01:29   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

Heya,

If you want to add Grey Knights to your force, do it. They're beautiful. And they're quite good at what they do. They're not going to win you the game likely, but they certainly are something that cannot be underestimated or ignored; bar single experiences of one person or two here and there that find them to be utter rubbish--anything can be said of any unit in this game by someone who has a pungent opinion. If you like them, by all means, get some--it's not a bad move, mistake, nor out of line. And if you read any of the GK fluff, you'll find that they don't always work alone. They're stationed all over the galaxy--not just on Titan. And they deal with problems near them--it's how they work so fast, being everywhere. They run into Guardsmen quite often. Those guardsmen don't always exist afterwards... due to the Inquisition... heh.. but never the less, it's not stretching anything, it's right in line with fluff.

That said, 4th edition heavily favors the shooting phase. Why do combat when you can just throw some heavy bolters and plasma at something? Combat should be last resort for you, unless you simply want to try to be an assault heavry army, in which case, you're likely playing an uphill battle with the wrong army. They can do combat, but they're certainly not a `combat army' by any means. They do what they can. Instead, try to focus on moving your units and reacting so that you get more chances to shoot. Avoid combat via braces and unit formations that have the least amount of models involved, so that you can chance break aways, instead of just sitting through melee.

If you need melee, the Guard has two exceptional units for the matter: 1) Rough Riders. As talked about by others, they are an excellent one-shot-wonder. They will break something in half so that you can better manage it with your normal models. It's not guaranteed. Nothing is. But it helps loads due to the high STR of the lances and the speed at which you can deliver it, for a cost that is very acceptable. 2) Veterans can do well in combat because the Serg of the squad can take a power fist (and an honorifica if you want). He's not an ind. character and so can't be picked out. That's a nice power fist for a round or two of assault that will do some serious damage. Great for counter charges. Nearly any squad with a Commissar for that matter, can add a great bit of counter charge to your force. Hidden power fists are wonderful.

Look to your codex first for answers; but don't be afraid to look elsewhere. The game is about having fun and doing what you like within the rules. The real rules of wars are `kill or be killed' when it comes down to it. There's no such thing as "fair" and all that stuff. You use what you can. Not what someone thinks you should.

Cheers,
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Old 28 Feb 2007, 03:55   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Grey Knight Allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
...The game is about having fun and doing what you like within the rules. The real rules of wars are `kill or be killed' when it comes down to it. There's no such thing as "fair" and all that stuff. You use what you can. Not what someone thinks you should.
It's not a war, Mal; it's a game. And most players don't like you doing things with your army list that are unfluffy just to win it. When you do it constantly you become a powergamer. No one's saying Grey Knights never join forces with the Imperial Guard, not at all, but using them in every single game to compensate for a natural weakness in your army just isn't cricket. They don't belong there in every battle and players should make the most of their own army lists and tactics to compensate for weaknesses, not plug the holes with allies from a different army altogether.
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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