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I need some help with my army
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 03:34   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,401
Default I need some help with my army

Ok. I am trying to build a competitive tourny list along with some tactical background. Basically every squad has a missile launcher like modern armies of today and every squad has plasma guns. I am sort of stuck on the 4 vehicles to use.

Command Squad
-MV, Medic, PG (x2)

2x Platoon Command Squads
-Vox, Medic, PG (x2)

6x Infantry Squads
-Vox, ML, PG

This is 75 instantry although 15 of them are in command squads. My preposed additions are either

2x Armored Fist Squad with Chimeras
-Vox, ML, PG

2x Anti-tank squads (las-cannon)

This gives me 80 basic guard, 15 command, 12 in heavy weapon squads for a total of 107 and 2 chimeras. I have 14 plasma guns, 8 Missile Launchers and 6 Las-cannons. I also have 325 points to spend.

Leman Russ's or Demolishers or hellhounds or more infantry. How many guardsmen should you have in a 1700 list. Need help in tweaking this for a competitive list. Thank you in advance for your honesty
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 08:03   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,193
Default Re: I need some help with my army

well for one thing you are lacking in armour, elites, mobility and anti infantry punch.
replace some of the missile launchers with heavy bolters or autocannons and maybe get some elites like storm troopers or ogryns.
you definatly need some armour so go with whatever you want in this respect.

also consider removing heavy weapons from some infantry squads as you will get the extra mobility without agonising about squeezing out that extra shot.
change infantry special weapons. all plasma guns is fun but guardsmen tend to backfire and die when using them. :P

thats just my personal oppinion though. feel free to use it or ignore it as you wish.
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 10:01   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Default Re: I need some help with my army

Yes a storm trooper squad is a flexible option as well as a hellhound, and shaso's right heavy weapons in every squad makes your army a slow one, take at least a grenade launcher in each squad however as you can move, fire it and then assault, its also good cause it always fires 24 inches
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 13:26   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,880
Default Re: I need some help with my army

I would suggest taking your Lascannons from your AT squad and switching them with some of the Missile Launchers in your regular infantry squads. Those are too juicy a target, and very vulnerable. Besides it's nice to not have to fire all 3 at the same target. Minor detail, but you said you wanted competetive. Also I agree plasma on plain old flak-armor guard is just asking for an accident. It's fun in a small dose but shouldn't be a central theme of a competetive army.
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 13:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default Re: I need some help with my army

I can confirm the plasma thing. I played another guard army on Sunday and my opponent had plasma rifles in all his infantry squads as well as in one of his command squads. I think by the end he had overheated and died with nearly all of them. He had terrible luck but the point remains that if you're looking for reliability, plasma is probably not the way to go.

Personally I arm my guys with a good mix. Including my conscript and command squads, I think the army I took on Sunday had 4 plasma rifles, 4 meltaguns, 3 grenade launchers and 3 flamers.

I would especially think of giving the armoured fist squads either meltaguns or flamers if you're planning on using them as scoot and shoot squads

You might think of changing the heavy weapons as well. Autocannons are a nice missile launcher substitute and will do better against light vehicles and hordes. Heavy bolters are always nice to take, but you do have 2 chimera, so you can probably skip them. But definitely throw in a few autocannons - you won't be disappointed.

Basically - mix it up more with weapon selections.
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 15:26   #6 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 11,122
Default Re: I need some help with my army

i'd suggest either drop the missile launchers in the armoured fist squad, or squeeze in a unit of storm troppers with a chimera. That'll mean you can move and fire nice and quickly.
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 16:03   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 55
Default Re: I need some help with my army

The combat logic i use with my guards is to have sufficient firepower of each kind to destroy every important strategic units of my ennemy on the first or second turn, and forcing my ennemy to attack the units that i decide, by presenting to him squads that he simply cannot avoid attacking (Otherwise he will get destroyed even more), with no concern whatsoever for my units survavibility other then shielding them with other units that take the shots for them or block the way. I pretty much never lost using that doctorine, even tho im a bit tired of it and seek to build a more fluffy, less agressive army right now.

Its not the only (and maybe not the best either) way to make a competitive guards army. But i find your army to be lacking anti-melle, anti-infantry swarm and specialised units.

First, your plasma, missile launchers and lasgun are in a squad together and use different range. That mean, all shoot at the same target in one round. If you shoot the rocket launcher at a far away vehicule, no plasma or lasgun shoot. If you use the plasma against a terminator or something, the missile launcher is completly wasted. On very rare occasion will you use your lasguns, plasma and missile launcher on the same target abnd be worth it. Only when shooting space marines under 24' range. Its still okay to make guards team like that, but not your whole army. You maybe got ''good enouf anti-vehicules'' with ''6 rocket launchers'' but if you fire those you are not shooting at anything else.

- I would recommand remplacing some rocket launchers with heavy bolters. It has a range and a type of target more simmilar to the lasguns in the team and it will be usefull even against a terminator. This way you got anti-troop units that can focus on anti troop.

- You then need more anti-vehicule firepower and i suggest you get some lascannons on the field. On what shape is up to you. Lascannon team are very great firepower for the cost but are the most attractive and easily destroyed target around. You can take them on the form of sentinels, with two lascannon sentinels for the price of 3 AT-team lascannons. They can move and shoot, so they can hide far away from whatever can destroy them and just come out of cover to shoot their targets. Or put them in command squads or normal squads.

If you have at least 3 normal infantry squad with missile launcher and consider fielding 3 lasercannon together, better to put the lasercannon in the team and put the missiles launchers together. Better protection and shooting opporunity that way. And the plasma got the Same AP as the heavy weapon then.

-You need heavy bolters. You never have enouf heavy bolters. Take 3 of them together, or more. You always need more heavy bolters. MOOORRRREEEEE! ALWAYS MOOORRREEE!

Oh well, cant make a too long post, i'll end up making your army look likie mine ^_^.

I can give a try and make a 1700 point list with my doctorine of more firepower is better if you want. Want me to give it a try?
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 16:21   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,401
Default Re: I need some help with my army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archimede
The combat logic i use with my guards is to have sufficient firepower of each kind to destroy every important strategic units of my ennemy on the first or second turn, and forcing my ennemy to attack the units that i decide, by presenting to him squads that he simply cannot avoid attacking (Otherwise he will get destroyed even more), with no concern whatsoever for my units survavibility other then shielding them with other units that take the shots for them or block the way. I pretty much never lost using that doctorine, even tho im a bit tired of it and seek to build a more fluffy, less agressive army right now.

Its not the only (and maybe not the best either) way to make a competitive guards army. But i find your army to be lacking anti-melle, anti-infantry swarm and specialised units.

First, your plasma, missile launchers and lasgun are in a squad together and use different range. That mean, all shoot at the same target in one round. If you shoot the rocket launcher at a far away vehicule, no plasma or lasgun shoot. If you use the plasma against a terminator or something, the missile launcher is completly wasted. On very rare occasion will you use your lasguns, plasma and missile launcher on the same target abnd be worth it. Only when shooting space marines under 24' range. Its still okay to make guards team like that, but not your whole army. You maybe got ''good enouf anti-vehicules'' with ''6 rocket launchers'' but if you fire those you are not shooting at anything else.

- I would recommand remplacing some rocket launchers with heavy bolters. It has a range and a type of target more simmilar to the lasguns in the team and it will be usefull even against a terminator. This way you got anti-troop units that can focus on anti troop.

- You then need more anti-vehicule firepower and i suggest you get some lascannons on the field. On what shape is up to you. Lascannon team are very great firepower for the cost but are the most attractive and easily destroyed target around. You can take them on the form of sentinels, with two lascannon sentinels for the price of 3 AT-team lascannons. They can move and shoot, so they can hide far away from whatever can destroy them and just come out of cover to shoot their targets. Or put them in command squads or normal squads.

If you have at least 3 normal infantry squad with missile launcher and consider fielding 3 lasercannon together, better to put the lasercannon in the team and put the missiles launchers together. Better protection and shooting opporunity that way. And the plasma got the Same AP as the heavy weapon then.

-You need heavy bolters. You never have enouf heavy bolters. Take 3 of them together, or more. You always need more heavy bolters. MOOORRRREEEEE! ALWAYS MOOORRREEE!

Oh well, cant make a too long post, i'll end up making your army look likie mine ^_^.

I can give a try and make a 1700 point list with my doctorine of more firepower is better if you want. Want me to give it a try?
I mentioned i had 325 points to spend. that can be 2x hellhounds, 2x russes, 2x demolishers, 2x anti-infantry squads etc.
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Old 20 Feb 2007, 16:48   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 55
Default Re: I need some help with my army

You got 75 guards units right? With 14 plasmas, 8 missiles launchers and 6 lasercannons . . .

I would convert two of your 10 man squads to two hardened veterans squads using the veteran doctorine (You can paint them a sightly different colors or just add camo sheme to their skin). That leave you with four platoon and two command squads.

Heavy weapons: I would put two of those lascannons with the veteran, their higher balistic skill making them use more of the lascannon power. Two of those lascannon in the command squads, wich ripped from their plasma weapons would serve to make those lascannon independant and sightly less vulnerable and two more in two of your normal infantry platoon, the one with the plasma weapons. The two last platoon would have heavy bolters and grenade launchers.

I would add to those heavy weapons 3 heavy bolters together and an autocannon put on the command squad and put 3 missiles launchers in a team of 3 (If you dont have more models. 3 missiles launchers together dont work that well for the cost).

Those heavy weapons teams wont be too vulnérable as the opponent will be much more occupied to fire at the veteran squad at the start.

I'd Strip most squads of their plasma and give them to the veterans, who can use more of their power with their superior balistic skill, and shoot with them right at the start since they infiltrate.

So, that's:

Command Squad
-Autocannon, Standart Bearer

2x Platoon Command Squads
-Laser Cannons

2x Infantry Squads
-Laser Cannons, Plasma Rifle

2x Infantry Squads
-Heavy Bolters, Grenade Launchers

2x Hardened Veterans (Armed to the Theets)
-Laser Cannon, Plasma Rifle x 3
(Infiltrate) (BS:4)

1x Fire Support Squad
-Heavy Bolters x 3

1x Anti-Tank Squad
-Missile Launcher x 3


Mental aproximation - 990-1000ish points


Add to that . . . MORE FIREPOWER

1x Unmodified Basilisk
-Earthshaker Cannon

1x Leeman Russ Exterminator
-Autocannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Bolters x 3
(Use it wisely to shield the basilisk and move before shooting phase)

1x Hellhound
-Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter

2x 5 Rough Riders
- Melta Bombs or Light lances

1x Griffon Mortar
(Hide it behind something)


And we still have points for some speedbumps to avoid melle charge! I'd Use two special weapons team. Armed with an explosive charge perhaps, or just unarmed. Just to use as speedbump for 35 points each.

No vox and almost no upgrades, but a lot of firepower and we are still under 1700 points. But, that was done on the run.
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Old 21 Feb 2007, 01:24   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Posts: 240
Default Re: I need some help with my army

One thing you should defiantly take is a basilisk with inderect fire. This will allow for direct pin point firing or general long range bombardment. Very usefull ;D
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