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Doctrines, yay or nay?
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 08:05   #21 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

personally, i like em. i take carapace, because i often play against SM or CSM and bolters just mow you down on 5+ so i make it 4+ and at least get a save. i also take stormtroopers, ratlings, Ogryns and Special weapons squads doctrines

i played Kais once and his carapace couldnt stop pulse weapons, but things like bolters, shuriken weapons ,and ork shootas are well defended against
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 12:54   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

Right it ius also useful against tau. Another nice one is close order drill because it is free.I am working on making xeno killers for orks on mine. Against other races it would be a waste of time because they would all die. Also I did add armor to make my cadians look to have a 4+ Armor Save
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 14:33   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

I think carapace armour is kind of cheap, but the Cadians do look like they are wearing metal plates, and not flak jackets, but that is my opinion. If you want Carapace on the new Cadians, I think it would be cool to use the Kasrkins, clip off all the wires, and replace the power sword (and add it on an officer) and replace it with a chainsword. That would be really expensive. Close order drill is one I like though, because everyone feels assured when youve got two comrades beside and two behind. You know you have a chance. I personnaly think that GW should make the rule that if one or more persons is killed in shooting, then the squad does not gain an advantage, because they are wondering if the guy next to them with a bolter in his face was spared by the emperor, only his comrades to be ripped apart by a wave of Kornate demons and Bezerkers! If I was standing close order and someone got killed, I would be feelin' pretty scared, and that moment of thought could distract me from combat.
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 21:50   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

I added some type of clear stuff (My dad gave it to me i am not sure what it was) and it made the models armor look alot thicker and then I made it mettalic and boom.
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Old 24 Nov 2005, 00:10   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

I agree and disagree. I agree that most players abuse doctrines. I disagree cause I love carapace armour.
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Old 24 Nov 2005, 00:20   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

But for those people who want to proxy an "elite" army comprised of Grenadiers and Veterans, Doctrines are amazing if modeled correctly.
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Old 24 Nov 2005, 02:31   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

With the current trend of codexes allowing all sorts of variations (especially traits/doctrine style setups like marines and IG), it's certainly helpful to keep IG armies competitive in the more hardcore gaming environments.* Granted, not everyone plays (or wants to play) in that kind of environment, but some people do, and the doctrines system allows them to tweak their force to a more competitive level.

I'm sure it was created more with the fluff gamer in mind, allowing them to field whatever odd-ball army they dreamed up.* I certainly don't understand the need that drives people to convert a whole army to represent armies from backwards planets that don't have a chance on the tabletop, but that's what makes the hobby great, I guess; people can have fun with it on all different levels.

I certainly use doctrines, and exploit them to make my army better.* I have a theme for my army, and am rather proud of the conversions and details I have put into it, but I don't pick the doctrines to fit the appearance theme of a human army subservient to the Tau.* I pick things like iron discipline, close order drill, drop troops and veterans to make the army a real threat.

Edit: It IS a pain when people proxy large amounts of units....the "carapace armor" is a perfect example, although at least in that case, I think every unit is required to have it, so the uniformity helps to a degree
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Old 24 Nov 2005, 05:14   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

I think doctrines are a really good idea that wasn't really perfected with the Guard Codex. The potential abuse with doctrines is fairly minimal. Iron disipline close order drill and drop troops are probably the best. Pretty much anything that ups a guardsman's point value up to 7 or 8 creates far too much of a cost/damage potention deficit for stat enhancing doctrines to be effective in a power gaming army. The most powerful guard army is still SIGAFH, and doctrines can do little to enhance that.
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Old 24 Nov 2005, 05:38   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

lets avoid thread necromancy, especially if your post does not go anywhere.

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Old 24 Nov 2005, 23:01   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Doctrines, yay or nay?

ask for my two cents worth and i'll give you a dime:
my vote would have to be 'yay' about doctrines...
every other army has exploitable variations of one kind or another, why not the guard? Actually, I believe that as the points involved in a battle get larger, the more detrimental the doctrines become, since restricted troops become more of a problem. The small forces that many players have managed to gather can be made slightly beefed up in order to increase the battle points total.
I think it is satisfying to stuff it in the face and countercharge a 'nid or ork player with a hardened fighters veteran squad they were not expecting, or to pay the extra points for sharpshooters rerolls on your lascannons and autocannons.
I do not like doctrines that must be (in an ideal world) converted - i.e. war.weapons/cybernetics/carapace, i dont have a list in front of me but i'm sure there are more -
However the doctrines that represent a skill or attitude like 'die-hard' or 'iron-discipline' or 'close order' that need not be simulated in miniature are really useful for spending points here or there to round out a list. When you make an army, the equation should be a simple one: does the army you want contain more than 4 restricted troop types? if it doesn't then throw a doctrine in there to give it some flavor. none of them are particularly unbalancing and they still cost points to add the skill to your squads....
As the owner of absolutely no ogryns, ratlings, roughriders, psykers, priests or other 'wierd' troop types - just men and tanks - i really like using doctrines to give a little nudge up here or there in what otherwise is the most pathetic stat-line in 40k. sharpshoot: roll my 3 hvy bolters FireSupport squad 9 dice to hit... one maybe two of those dice will more than likely come up a one, in which case i get a reroll and another 50% chance to hit and kill an ork that punk little lasguns wouldnt likely be able to.... cuz if i dont kill him by shooting he will probably kill me by chopping. I paid the points for a slightly better gunner, i get a small chance advantage because of it. if i wanted a MUCH better gunner i would just play grey knights or something instead and once again, pay the points for the quality i want.
Doctrines = you get what you pay for (and neither is much)
bear with me as i babble since the topic is up, i will tell of my personal favorite and least favorite doctrines and combos.

independant commissar BAD... the whole point of these guys is to hide in squads and use meatshields while sluggin away with whatever cool weapon the figure has.

iron discipline always good. 5 pts. get a master vox in yer command squad and dont get him killed and you have no morale problems.

drop troops BAD if too many are in reserve... you never quite know when who will show up so it will be impossible to form a battle plan - you will always be dropping in reaction to your opponent's last move, never dictating the direction yourself.

warrior weapons BAD because you can't fight any way.

sharpshooting/ light infantry/ with cameleoline AWESOME because you can set them right where you want them and not ever move and shoot away with your heavy weapons from a 3+ cover save in a building for the whole game

close order drill + hardened fighters + veterans(w. shotguns and ccw/lpist combo): make some effective assault squads... i know they are only S3 but those 3 attack dice and boosted initiative if you charge right adds up, and the vet sarge can carry a fist and actually do something that shocks those arrogant assaulty army opponents,

my current favorite:
grenadiers + stormtroopers + close drill

because like many players, I never have as many figures as I need to make the army of my choice. I can fill a troop requirement with the stormies - get a little special ability (if it ever comes in handy - which has been seldom - but it can) and means that i don't need to field as many figures that i do not have just to fill up force requirement.

Bottom line: Doctrines: I know it's petty, but hey... every other army has its cheese, why not exploit ours?
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