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Carapace Armour; Advisable?
View Poll Results: Would Carapace Armour be advisable?
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Old 05 Sep 2006, 23:22   #1 (permalink)
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Default Carapace Armour; Advisable?

Hello.

I love Commissars! Particularly Ciaphas Cain (got all of the books!) they are just so cool, so I thought Hell! I'll do a Terrax Guard Regiment. Now the plan behind them is that, instead of Officers leading my force, it will be Commissars.

Now I game against my Little Bro and his mates Frequently, who are really good! But the only problem is that there armies are riddled with AP5 madness! This is what they have:

Bro.) Thousand Sons

Mate #1) Tau

Mate #2) Necrons

Mate #3) Eldar

Mate #4) Khorne/World Eaters

So what I ask is that, would it be advisable to take C.A in a SIGAFH? Or would plenty of warm fleshy meat be more wise? I know many of you detest C.A but 3/4 of these guys have very lethal AP5 weapons. Or would 100+ Guardsmen be better?

Thanks.
 
Old 06 Sep 2006, 00:02   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

Heya,

I will step out on a battered broken and limb and say no it's not worth it. Especially facing those armies you're mentioned. With the exception of Khorne, they're all primarily shooting based armies in general. Just because they have AP5 and ignore your normal armor save, doesn't mean you should try to increase that armor save, because all you've done, is made it so some guns don't ignore your saves, yet all the other guns in their force still ignore it (ie: you saved yourself against basic arms, 50% of the time).

Instead, I'll simply leave you with a tid-bit of wonder: cover saves are free.

100+ Guardsmen in cover, is much better than a handful of 4+ saving guardsmen. And on that note, if you don't have much cover on your boards, then make it. Also note, vehicles supply 4+ cover saves, as do wrecked vehicles.

Cheers!
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Old 06 Sep 2006, 00:06   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

I agree, besides seeing 100-200+ men on the board already is enough to give an opponent a good run for his money. I used to have a huge Cadian army, having 300+models would always give me an automatic grin of pride.

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Old 06 Sep 2006, 01:18   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

Most units of yours won't be out of cover for long if you've got anything to say about it...and when they aren't in cover, they're generally baiting the enemy (and thus going to die anyway), securing an objective (not being shot at) or assaulting something (where numbers are more important than armour).

If you REALLY need something with a 4+ save for a special reason of some sort, then just grab a squad or two of Storm Troopers. For just 2pts more than the effective cost of CA, you get an extra special weapon (if your unit is designed to stay put and shoot, then you don't need these guys in the first place) and extra BS. Worth it to my mind.

Really, though, more bodies on the board means more damage to throw out and more people to absorb the firepower of the enemy. Eldar firepower is rarely from their lowly Guardians and defensive weapons on vehicles...no...it's from their countless other nasty things that have AP4 or AP6. In either case, your having CA isn't cost effective in the least. Necrons and Thousand Suns are another matter, I'll agree, but it's still important to stay in cover against these forces and blast them with your own heavier firepower to paste them. Saving a couple more models here and there won't help you. Tau have a mass of AP5 weapons that will absolutely massacre you IF he sets up in a gunline...and if he does and has no mobility, then just swamp him anyway and blast him with your own heavy weapons. If he moves around a lot and is annoying about it, then just rely on numbers and clogging the board with targets. He can't kill that many of them...and you've still got cover on your side.

Lastly is the World Eater army...where your 4+ save will do an awful hell of a lot of nothing for nobody. To my experience, a World Eater army has practically no firepower at all...except on an anti-tank Predator (won't be shot at your men), a Dreadnaught (which will paste your men anyway) or a Defiler (caparace won't cut it).

I'd advise against Carapace armour for any reason except fluff or character. Some armies represent elite forces, Storm Trooper training companies, Terrax Guard, drop troops or heavily-modified Skitari legions. In those cases, you can tailor a force around it...or just accept it as a 'loss to character'. Either way, good luck with your decision.

Remember...it's not the can your meat is in, it's how much meat you have.
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Old 06 Sep 2006, 08:04   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

If you're going to have it at all (ie. Characters, etc) go all in + give everyone some. Mixed armor screws units w/ one guy with a decent save. Though, in CC, when Inde.'s can be picked out by entire squads, its better to have that save on just that guy for the 5pts.

But here's an example of carapace v non carapace. I play an army with it, my friend plays his guard without. He gets more men, more special weapons, and most importantly, more heavy weapons. With those extra rocket shots per turn, he's able to eliminate far more than I can per turn. My men are better protected against incoming fire, but what I spend on defence, he spends on offence. And it tends to be more effective, from what I've seen.

I'm thinking of taking out Carapace in place of something else, I'll be able to afford some more units and wargear that I've wanted...

“An open battlefield is nothing but a death trap. In a war, any visible target is a casualty; no matter how well protected it may be. -The Tactica Imperium”
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Old 08 Sep 2006, 18:51   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

remember all units need to take it who can- so if 6 units take it then instead of the carapce you get an extra 10 lasguns- and guard thrive on numbers- also, if you spend most the time hugging cover (in a way similar to the wood elves and their trees) then you get a 5 up save or better most the time anyway

but if it is in character then i'd go for it (as bash said) otherwise no (and change the background slightly)
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Old 09 Sep 2006, 13:16   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

Guard? Armour save? when did that ever happen?

If your playing guard you almost never get armour saves. My best armour is a wall of conscripts, and because of a couple of lucky games everyone is scared of the 160 point unit and they draw a lot of fire. its quite easy to spend that many points on carapace armour, which will still be ignored a lot of the time. I also take cameoline, just coz its fun to get 2+ saves that can only be ignored by flamers or combat when in fortified positions
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Old 17 Sep 2006, 13:54   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

but isn't cameoline even more expesive?

i wouldn't take any thing that increases there armour save on the basis that you get more bodies which makes the army as a whole more durable and more shots back which is better!
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Old 17 Sep 2006, 18:47   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace Armour; Advisable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadhfang
but isn't cameoline even more expesive?

i wouldn't take any thing that increases there armour save on the basis that you get more bodies which makes the army as a whole more durable and more shots back which is better!
Cameoline is half the price of Carapace armour

If you actually intend to hug cover the entire game and invest, likewise, in Light Infantry to make a hardcore cityfighter (or Gaunt's Ghosts army) force, then by all means take this Doctrine and it will serve you far better than Carapace Armour. If you've got a close combat army, then a little more armour helps you a lot more since most things won't bypass it. With a shooting army, you've got to use cover to survive long enough to deal out more damage. Things that shoot a lot at you are going to kill you one way or another and a little more armour isn't going to save you- heavy weapons are an awful lot too AP4 for your own good. Cameoline helps you against both these things, Carapace does not.

4+ armour is nice in close combat so you live a little bit longer, 4+ cover makes you laugh off half the fire that comes at you.

Which is nicer?

Well, there are plenty of times when you'll need a bit more armour...that's where Storm Troopers come in. Unless you've got a fluff reason to take Carapace, it's rarely going to get you very much compared to its main rival- cameoline. You can take both, of course, making your models horribly expensive...the Codex even suggest using stealth suits to represent this.

To me, I think it's best that you should really avoid using Doctrines at all unless you've got a good reason to take them- Guard are just fine without them. Don't feel you need to take them and don't just take the most ostensibly powerful (ie most expensive). Sure, a 4+ save IS nice...it keeps you alive a little longer in close combat, it lets you ignore pretty much every single basic weapon in the entire game (bolters, shuriken catapults, splinter rifles, pulse rifles, gauss rifles etc) and even second-rate heavy weapons like big shootas/shuriken cannon/burst cannon and so forth. It lets you ignore an awful lot of firepower that's thrown at you...but is absolutely useless against the heavy weapons a Guard army comes to fear. Cover at all helps you alleviate both of these problems and if your army is not obscenely huge, you can always find good places to hide in and shoot out of...but remember: the best cover doesn't give you a sight, it disrupts an enemy's firing line.

If your army is huge, however, then it will -by numbers alone- be extremely hard to get points from (since its models are cheap), able to get objectives easily (since it's hard to drop enough below 50%) and finally be able to throw out plenty of hurt. In an infantry squad, you have to kill 8 men to take out any of importance (heavy weapon, special weapon or Sergeant). The more of these units you field, the better...whether they are particularly hard to take out or not.

Carapace Armour is of no use against the heavy weapons your enemy has, reduces your numbers considerably and is not even at all useful if you use cover (which you should). Cameoline is a cheaper option, better in some cases and worst in most, but still lowers your numbers a little bit. Taking both gives you advantages that don't 'sync' (if you're using cover anyway, why the hell do you need a 4+ save anyway?) and dramatically reduces your numbers overall.

More meat is good meat, so overall the greatest defence a Guard army can have is to just have more men. Period. It also increases your damage output (more guns, takes more deaths to lose a good gun), objective-holding ability (you've got more squads to take them with) and just plain scares you enemy- poor man's Storm Troopers do not. If you want 4+ saves so badly, just take Grenadiers...they most certainly do have their uses and place. Fluff is still a valid and entirely different argument...and one I am glad to support.

Anyways, that's my take on Carapace Armour and its chief rival, Cameoline. I personally take neither, but that's my fluff.
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