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Thinking of starting Guard Army
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Old 07 May 2006, 18:56   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Thinking of starting Guard Army

Hi,

Im just starting to get back into 40k after a break of over a year, and aside from bringing my Tau army back into play, Im considering starting up an Imp Guard army. Ive never played one before, and I have minimal experience playing against one (people in my area dont seem to like them very much). Ive read some of the tactics pages here, but Im still looking for a very general Pro-Con bit from experienced players. Aside from spending alot of $$ (most expensive army in the game?) and a neck-breaking amount of painting to be done, what are some pro's and con's of the Imp Guard from a tactical and enjoyment standpoint?

Thanks,
Grimvail
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Old 07 May 2006, 19:56   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Advantages:

The guard can take a lot of infantry. Guardsmen aren't very powerful by themselves, but you can easily field over 100 in medium sized games.

The guard can take some great tanks. The Russ is one of the best, if not the best, way to clear out MEQs. Demolishers, Griffons, chimeras, and Basilisks all are powerful as well.

Disadvantages.

The guard are slow. Unless you take a Forgeworld Salamander you're not going to be moving more than 12" per turn. Almost your entire army must stand still to fire. Deploy well, because if you have to move a lot, you're losing a lot of firepower.

The guard are weak in hand to hand. Guard command squads can be tooled out for hand to hand, but this unit doesn't match up to the truly nasty hand to hand specialists of other armies, and inevitably costs more points than it's worth. If your enemy gets into hand to hand, then your only options are to try to swamp them with bodies or run away while leaving a sacrificial rearguard unit.
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Old 07 May 2006, 20:04   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimvail
Hi,

Im just starting to get back into 40k after a break of over a year, and aside from bringing my Tau army back into play, Im considering starting up an Imp Guard army. Ive never played one before, and I have minimal experience playing against one (people in my area dont seem to like them very much). Ive read some of the tactics pages here, but Im still looking for a very general Pro-Con bit from experienced players. Aside from spending alot of $$ (most expensive army in the game?) and a neck-breaking amount of painting to be done, what are some pro's and con's of the Imp Guard from a tactical and enjoyment standpoint?

Thanks,
Grimvail
I'd go with everything Commander Vimes has said......in my opinion they and Orks are the weakest armies in the game currently (and I have both....). Making them work is a challenge.

If you do want 'em, I suggest:

(i) buying off eBay - lowest cost
(ii)use a uniform/colour scheme amenable to spraypainting and washing to save time

Unless the fluff really turns you on, I would suggest building some Guard to go with another force like Lost and the Damned, WitchHunters etc if you want to play competitively.
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Old 07 May 2006, 20:08   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud
in my opinion they and Orks are the weakest armies in the game currently (and I have both....). Making them work is a challenge.

If you do want 'em, I suggest:

(i) buying off eBay - lowest cost
Why are the weakest army?

As far as ebay, thats where i always buy stuff. GW is waay overpriced.
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Old 07 May 2006, 20:43   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

There is nothing in the codex that makes them the weakest army. They can outnumber just about anyone (you can have 105 guard in a 750 point game if you want to) Their standard non APC tank has an ordanace weapon and armour 14 on the front. They have some pretty decent counter assault units (rough riders can easily beat sm bikes on the charge. And they have access to ridiculously huge amounts of heavy weapons.

Guard are one of the most competatively sound armies and provide a perfect opportunity for powergaming (Try taking 3 Leman Russ' in 1000 pts!)
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Old 08 May 2006, 00:01   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimvail

Why are the weakest army?
Its hard to tell...on paper IG look pretty good, but I've found them (at 1500 pts, 6x4 table anyway) to be less powerful than my other armies. (DE, Eldar, Necrons and SM...I'd rate all of them higher than IG, I think Orks are probably a bit worse)

We recently completed a club tourney and the 3 IG armies fielded, of about 20 armies total (v different IG compositions too), all wound up in lowest quartile......and the 3 of us us playing IG have done pretty well using other armies vs the same opponents/ armies.

I think it comes down to 3 things in 40k IV.

(i) Number of powerful guns fielded - Eldar, DE, Tau, SM, CSM, Necrons and even 'Nids have access to powerful guns that KO Guard tanks at fairly low cost.....everybody is a Big Gun player now, so IG armour is not as useful as it perhaps once was.

(ii) Guard firepower/survivability is dicey...not quite sure why, but it is certainly no longer the best shooty infantry in the game ( I have found that I will usually be outshot by all the +3 save armies, Dark Eldar, and Tau). Squad by squad the other guys just seem to get the points/effectiveness edge, and at 1500pts it really adds up. Template weapons also seem less effective.

(iii) They just will not survive once in hand to hand, period.

You already have Tau, I think tactically they are quite similar to play to IG and a better army all round.

If you do go Guard, I increasingly think the 100 man+ IG infantry army is probably the way to go...have more men than anyone can shoot off table in 6 turns! Forget any tank that can be seen, the others will have it for breakfast.


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Old 08 May 2006, 05:39   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Ha!

I am a Tau player. I have bent our codex to its limits. I have also thoroughly examined your codex.

Conclusion: dakka is always the best policy.

Guard can be increadibly nasty. It is all about bringing as many heavy bolters and autocannons as possible, and using veteran squads with meltas correctly.

Don't try to be marines. Be BS3 heavy weapon platforms. Dakka!

Imperial guard are supposed to reduce the battlefield to a cratered hell. Think of your tanks as a hammer, and your infantry as a rapier. Now, bringing 6 rapiers may be enough to get lucky and pierce your enemy's heart, but I'd bring 16 to CRUSH my enemy with a precision weapon. The tanks are a nice "mop up" or softener, sweeping aside small units or weakening strong ones for the rest of your army.

MechTau's crazy Imperial guard infantry platoon:

Autocannon/Heavy Bolter, plasma gun.

MechTau's crazy Veteran unit

3x Melta guns, deepstrike/infiltrate

Now, I also think that using vox to the fullest extent is smart. Giving your army re-rollable Ld 10 is good. I don't know how small you can do that with, but buying fire support squads with Lascannons is nice too. A simple backup for your suicide vets.

Tanks are straightforward. Take them, and MAUL your opponent with them. Rip chuncks out of them as they advance, smash them as they stand and shoot. Lend your firepower where it is needed.

Rough riders: Amazing unit. Possibly one of the finest charging unit in the game considering their points and the army that is using them. Power armor and Terminators need to be shown a lance. Tanks go down well too.

To conclude, Imperial guard is a whole different way to play WH40k. It is laying down the most devestating static gunline in the universe. Line them up and shoot them to HELL. If you need advice on how to play IG, remember the rulebook:

Quote:
The Imperial Guard turn a warzone into a cratered hell
Individual lives do not matter. You are not space marines.

I can now see how Wargamer writes with such passion. I am filled with a sudden hatred towards doctrines, and a strange urge to swing a chainsword at my enemies and laspistol those who dare retreat is overcoming me. For the Emperor!
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Old 08 May 2006, 07:29   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Individual lives do not matter.
heck yea! i remember i read once that the the proper things for a Guard player were:

1. A callous disregard for the value of human life
2. A love of loud clanky tanks!

remember guard win though sacrifice, not the cowardly self-survial of other armies.

IG are also good if you like a challenge. setup and composition can break you before you even start. Target selection is also one of your most important duties.
The best thing about guard, in my opinion, (well, besides delicious tanks and heavy weapons) is the feeling of winning with guard. i mean, i just killed all kinds of horrors with ordinary people! although...there is a certain thrill in watchin your enemies melt under your superior firepower.

oh one more thing...with guard....learn to PRAY to the Him On Terra that you get first turn cus that can give you one heck of an advantage.

expensive? maybe. really depends on your construction. Ogyrn for example, are $$.
an interesting idea you might try is the Armored Company. fastest setup time of any IG army i know, quick turns, and you dont need to get a whole lot of guys. added bonus: the codex for it is online, so no dinero there! games will tend to be unbalanced though, with you either winning or losing by huge margins.

kinda kraked out now at 3 am but hope that helped!


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Old 08 May 2006, 08:05   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTau
Guard can be increadibly nasty. It is all about bringing as many heavy bolters and autocannons as possible, and using veteran squads with meltas correctly.

Don't try to be marines. Be BS3 heavy weapon platforms. Dakka!

Imperial guard are supposed to reduce the battlefield to a cratered hell. Think of your tanks as a hammer, and your infantry as a rapier. Now, bringing 6 rapiers may be enough to get lucky and pierce your enemy's heart, but I'd bring 16 to CRUSH my enemy with a precision weapon. The tanks are a nice "mop up" or softener, sweeping aside small units or weakening strong ones for the rest of your army.

MechTau's crazy Imperial guard infantry platoon:

Autocannon/Heavy Bolter, plasma gun.

MechTau's crazy Veteran unit

3x Melta guns, deepstrike/infiltrate

Now, I also think that using vox to the fullest extent is smart. Giving your army re-rollable Ld 10 is good. I don't know how small you can do that with, but buying fire support squads with Lascannons is nice too. A simple backup for your suicide vets.

Tanks are straightforward. Take them, and MAUL your opponent with them. Rip chuncks out of them as they advance, smash them as they stand and shoot. Lend your firepower where it is needed.

Rough riders: Amazing unit. Possibly one of the finest charging unit in the game considering their points and the army that is using them. Power armor and Terminators need to be shown a lance. Tanks go down well too.
Hmmm...have you actually played Guard yet? What looks great on paper doesn't always translate. To respond.....

(i) Dakka is all very well, but some (quite a lot at BS3) has to KO enemy heavy armour. Quite a few of those squads will need Lascannons.

(ii) In 40k IV, against any half decent army list, IG tanks go down quite fast. Russes may survive a bit longer but they are too tempting as a points kill early up for the Other Guy's Lascannon/Lance/Railgun/etc, so will be targeted.

(iii) Ld10 is fine, but better is Iron Discipline that means they carry on below half strength.

(iv) Fire support squads...6 soft pink men, 3 guns.....they get wiped out in 1 go if the enemy takes 'em on. Have to have 4' weapons (eg lascannons) to minimise toastiness...but overall higher survival is by putting guns in squads

(v) Rough Riders....agree....best h2h IG have.

(vi) Veteran Kamikazes....possibly, though StormTroopers live a bit longer in deepstrike/infiltration owing to carapace armour. These guys will live precisely 1 bound once they are shootable. In my experience Vet's BS4 is best used with a decent gun.

(vii) 16 squads....I think this is the key....a squad with Iron discipline will hang around to shoot longer than any other IG choice.

The other useful weapon is the Sentinel, packing a big gun and standing off at 4'. 3 of them cost similar to 1 Rus, and they are more likely to kill things and survive as a unit.

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Old 08 May 2006, 08:28   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of starting Guard Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTau
Think of your tanks as a hammer, and your infantry as a rapier.
imperial guard infantry are a rapier? you do know what a rapier is, right? our infantry comes in minimum sets of 25. precision and subtlelty are not our strong point. our tanks are a hammer, our infantry are a hammer. not a big hammer, but thousands of tiny little hammers which merge together to form a solid mass of no-nonse, kick-your-mutated/heretical/xenos-a**, they are by no means a rapier. they are the anvil.

now, as to this comparison between tau and imperial guard: this is ture, but ONLY for static tau. lines of firewarriors with a few broadsides and sniper drones are very similar to guard. every FW in a Dfish and 9 crisis suits is NOT guard. neither is hordes of kroot backed up by hammerheads.

to start off with i would buy thisasuming you play plastic)
Starter set
2 Troop Boxes
1 Chimera
1 officer blister
special weapon blister(only if you want to field plasma and meltas)
this comes to 112 plus special weapon blisters


this gives you enough for a simple command squad, a nice sized platoon, an armoured fist and a leman russ/sentinel squadron. the heavy weapons can be used creativly to get 15 total(3 of each), meaning you can asign heavy weapons to all squads.

now another important aspect: have you thought of which doctrines your going to use? when begining a guard army taking the 5 most expensive doctrines might be tempting, to make up for your lack of models. dont. make up an army list and try to keep your basic infantry cheap, even if this means not playing in the bigger games. people who make terrax guard/harakoni warhawk armies usually lose because they end up doubleing the cost of their basic troops, limiting the amount of firepower they can churn out. the new vostroyans are a good example of what not to do: hardened fighters is good if your going to do alot of fighting, but expensive. sharpshooters is good if you fire alot of expensive weapons, but again, expensive. these to doctrines are contradicting. any regiment with hardened fighters should strike to get into CC, any regiment with sharpshooters wants to stay back and shoot the crap out of them. then you also have carapace armour, good if you only paid per model, but its per squad. this means that all the 6-man special weapons teams and 5 man command squads will paying the same as full 10 man infantry squads. i suggest this: only 2 or 3 doctrines that cost you money. and if you want assaulty, go all the way.(warrior weapons would be a must)

Units you must have: these are units guard armies can't go without.
Officers: not much of a problem, you only need a handful anyways. the usual problem is the fact that the models are configured to be expensive. so when you get the blisters try to avoid getting the powerfist one. the plasma pistol isn't to great(i dont field any at all) either, but can easily be converted to a las/bolt pistol.

Leman russes: many people field infantry-pure armies, but leman russes give us a huge competitive edge. these bad boys can take out anything(heavy infantry/tanks/hordes) but they are best suited for power armour killing. these guys are pretty much a must against necrons or marines.

Infantry: unless you play a grenadiers pure army you will most definetly need these. the 60 soldiers i recommened above aren't for an infantry heavy guard, they are for a minimum guard army. it doesn't matter what style of play you prefer, you will always need loads of basic infantry. this is even more true if you dont take russes and go for a SIGAFH.

Units to stay clear of: at the begining some units will be very expencive to buy, and would be better off later in the army.

ogryns: you have to get 6 man squads, if not you'll be wasting ALOT of potential and points. this adds up to 54. you'll need a chimera aswell, they're useless footslugging. so this brings your single 6 man unit to 74.

rough riders: unless your going to use fantasy plastic cavalry(many people do) rough riders will be very expensive. at 5 each it'll cost you 50 for a full squad, which is they only way they'll hold up the enemy long enough to be of any use. and taking into acount the fact that they are near useless at everything except charging, id wait if you want to field these.

sentinels: cool looking models and very fluffy for combat patrols. but they're not effective unless taken en-masse. i ususally take 6 in an army, no less than that. this is becuase their role as scouts is rather redundant in a guard army. any objectives that are taken will be lsot since most guard armies wont keep up with them and the AV 10 walkers will be alone against a more mobile and determined enemy. this means you have to field them as an attack unit. for this you'll need many of them. setting you back 40ish each squadron depending on what variants you buy.

and my last point of advice: do not be afraid to lose men. in the guard you will lose squad after squad, but dont worry about that its normal. and most importantly, dont make them uber expensive to try and stop them from going down in drones, it wont work.
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