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When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 17:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

[size=16pt]When to Assault with Guard Infantry [COD][/size]

Ive been working on my Static, Infantry Heavy Guard Army lately. The list is designed to be fluffy so I havent taken too many super weapons, most of those I take are quite basic. This is the kind of squad I use [Id imagine its a fairly common squad];

Imperial Guard Infantry Squad; 85 Points
Close Order Drill,
Autocannon,
Grenade Launcher,
Vet Sarg;
Shotgun OR Bolt Pistol & CC Weapon OR Bolter.

At 24 Vs MEQs -

Autocannon - 0.27
Grenade Launcher - 0.13
Lasguns - 0.38
Bolter - 0.08
Shotgun - 0.00
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.00

= 0.86 MEQ Kills [at best]. So your looking at about 1 MEQ Kill per turn at that range. The result is almost the same even when we give the Sarg a different weapon.

Now when the enemy is within 12 you have a choice, the first is to stand and shoot;

At 12 Vs MEQs, Stationary Rapid Fire-

Autocannon - 0.27
Grenade Launcher - 0.13
Lasguns - 0.77
Bolter - 0.16
Shotgun - 0.11
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.08

= 1.33 MEQ Kills [at best]. So again, your looking at about 1 MEQ Kill per turn at this range. The result is almost the same even when we give the Sarg a different weapon. BUT the MEQ can charge you next turn, getting extra attacks. They will also be able to shoot you with any assault weapons and pistols they may have. Something your unit cant really stand up to.

For the rear squad, see later in article, a moving Rapid Fire will achieve 1.06 MEQ Kills, so 1 MEQ Kill.

The other option is to charge the enemy;

At 12 Vs MEQs, Advance, Shoot, Charge-

Shooting;

Grenade Launcher - 0.13
Shotgun - 0.11
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.08

Charge;

Infantry + Sarg with Shotgun; 1.16
Infantry + Sarg with Bolt Pistol & CC Wep; 1.22

= 1.43 MEQ Kills [at best]. Which is better than staying stationary to fire your Heavy Weapon. It also stops the MEQs from getting the extra attacks by charging you, it also stops them shooting pistols and assault weapons at you. It is better to charge if you have COD.

What I like to do is have the squads in a Platoon support each other, the front squad will advance and fire, whilst the back squad will advance and rapid fire [as they do they also move into COD formation for next turn]. The Command Squad will stay stationary and fire [all have Autocannon, Grenade Launcher]. The front squad can then charge in [getting into COD formation as they do]. The back squad Sarg will have a Bolter and the front squad Sarg will have either a Shotgun or Pistol and CC Wep. The Command Squad stays out of the fray because it has less Lasguns to utilise if it moves and Rapid Fires and it achieves less in combat. You also want to keep your officers alive for the LD bonus in case you lose your Sarg in a squad.

Deployment of a full Platoon will often look like this;

[About 4 between front and back unit]

Squad 1 Squad 3
Command Squad
Squad 2 Squad 4

OR

Command Squad
Squad 1 Squad 3

Squad 2 Squad 4

__________________________________________________ _________________________

At 24 Vs GEQs -

Autocannon - 0.83
Grenade Launcher - 0.41
Lasguns - 1.16
Bolter - 0.33
Shotgun - 0.00
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.00

= 2.73 GEQ Kills [at best]. So your looking at about 3 GEQ Kills per turn at that range.

At 12 Vs GEQs, Stationary Rapid Fire-

Autocannon - 0.83
Grenade Launcher - 0.41
Lasguns - 2.33
Bolter - 0.5
Shotgun - 0.33
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.25

= 4.07 GEQ Kills [at best]. So your looking at about 4 GEQ Kills.

For the rear squad, a moving Rapid Fire will achieve 3.24 GEQ Kills, so 3 GEQ Kills. Slightly better than stationary fire, so you are still best to move up and rapid fire with the rear squad.

At 12 Vs GEQs, Advance, Shoot, Charge-

Shooting;

Grenade Launcher - 0.41
Shotgun - 0.33
Pistol and CC Wep - 0.25

Charge;

Infantry + Sarg with Shotgun; 3.5
Infantry + Sarg with Bolt Pistol & CC Wep; 3.6

= 4.26 GEQ Kills [at best]. Again better than both other options in terms of damage and stops the enemy getting the charge off and/or shooting at you.

Disclaimer; This is just my take on things and what I like to do with my army. But I figure as both the unit I'm talking about and COD are very common, that I should put it here on TO.
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 18:36   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

Heya Veq,

Excellent points on several bases. The first assumption many make often times is that assaulting with the guard implies not shooting or not being supported. The truth is, every army, including combat specialist armies are not good at assaulting unless supported by another unit and the Guard makes no exception here, needing that support dearly. The close order drill combined with a buddy support squad is definitely the way to go; it works the same in most armies. Simply having a unit which can stand still, and fire, another unit which may increase that via close range rapidfire, and another unit, if possible or absolutely necessary to assault after firing assault based weapons, to both cause more damage, or to prevent a dirty assault. You get a nice 3 step focused effort that can level quite a few heads making your life easier. Depending on the weapons you're using, this can pretty much seal the deal with small 6 man MEQ teams, or at least buy you a turn or so with a larger unit. Regardless, it's better to deal damage and deny excess damage to yourself via that method, rather than allowing them to simply charge you in the following turn, where they whip out the squad and bounce directly into a another (ouch). The sole problem with the assault path, is that if it fails or the rolls are just really off and you're up against something difficult to slow down, or they're just lucky, they may beat back that little assault in your own phase (granted it would take quite a bit, short of a failed moral check) and then be able to either consolidate or push forward towards another unit, making it easier to get another assault on you. So having your squads spaced out accordingly would be wise.

Anyhow good points on the command squads--they definitely shouldn't be assaulting (especially with power fists and the like...). Combining the efforts of meltaguns and rapidfire, along with an assaulting unit can help give the rolls you need to reduce an enemy MEQ squad to something manageable. And it can be a "lights out" for a GEQ squad within range, where that save isn't going to bounce your lasguns off. Obviously adding penetrating weapons will bump up the odds, but they have their draw backs as well.

That's where the counter charge unit comes in--like Rough Riders or a little allied Assassin, to seal the deal

Good points; I'm sure it will stir some thoughts

Cheers!
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Old 30 Apr 2006, 01:54   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

Interesting math, but you don't seem to be (or, if you are, I missed it) including the initiative factor.

If all 10 of your guardsmen get their attacks, then sure, charging may be the right move.

But if, for example, the unit you're planning to assault swings first, you're not too likely to get the full number of attacks. And, even with your close-order drill, there can be situations where due to your opponent's positions, the charge rules force you to break base-to-base.

But, for argument's sake, let's say that it's a unit of six noise marines. If you shoot, you drop one, leaving 5 to return fire, and, well, that's 15 bolter shots, with 10 hits, and killing 6 or seven of your unit. So, yeah, you want to charge them.

But, they swing first. Six noise marines are going to score four hits, 2.66 wounds, and you're most likely looking at losing two guardsmen before you swing.... possibly more if he had an aspiring champion. If you manage to drop the one expected marine in return, you're still looking at having lost combat, and taking the feared break test, with the cut-down test taken at your unmodified initiative.

I understand what you're saying, but I just wanted to point out that there's more factors than just the kills you inflict. You have to figure out the deaths you expect to take in return as well, both whether you charge or shoot.
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Old 30 Apr 2006, 01:56   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

But... redbeard, remember, you can have more then one squad.

It probably doesn't really matter in this comparison. But usually you have enough bodies to take the blows...
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Old 30 Apr 2006, 02:17   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

Fair enough Redbeard, but how common are Squads with the Mark of Slaanesh compared to regular Marine Tac Squads, regular Chaos Squads etc?.

Even with that situation though, those six Slaanesh Marines are going to take shooting from a squad, and the shooting + charge from the main squad. If that main squad doesn't charge, it's going to be taking a test from taking 25% shooting casualties, it's going to still cause less or at best the same amount of damage AND if it survives the enemy fire power [which as this means you will have gotten into COD outside of combat, will leave the unit vulnerable to Blastmasters in this Slaanesh army. The squad behind that have gotten into COD when they have moved up and Rapid-Fired would be safer due to the combat in front of them blocking LOS if you do charge] It's going to get charged with even more attacks.

So even with that situation, you are still far better off charging in and stepping up the support squad to Rapid-Fire.

The deaths taken in return aren't in the numbers, but they are factored into the whole thing. It's just safer for your squad [and supporting squad, due to the added vulnerability from blast templates after stepping up into COD and Rapid-Firing] to charge the target unit.
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Old 30 Apr 2006, 05:31   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

interesting points. if you really want to assault, id suggest at least two unit simo charge. i do have a question tho...what is a GEQ? i know a MEQ is a marine equiv...
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Old 30 Apr 2006, 15:38   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: When to Assault with Guard [COD] - My take;

But that's much harder to pull off and still have both units in COD etc. Getting a 1 unit charge with a supporting squad that Rapid Fires is much easier to achieve.

GEQ = Guard Equivalent.
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