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Making IG competitive
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Old 15 Apr 2006, 22:05   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 394
Default Making IG competitive

So...we have about 20 players in our club league, 3 of us played Guard - quite different armie by the way - and we all landed up around the top of the last quartile at the end

We know we are all better players than that as we do pretty well with our other armies (Iron Warriors, Eldar, Dark Eldar etc)

- 1 was a fairly mechanised army
- 1 was a huge infantry based army

Mine was mixed, as below - any suggestions to make it better are welcomed.:

1500 pt IG

Doctrines - Rough Riders, Iron Siscipline, SharpShooters

HQ - SO + P/W, Pistol + Vet Sgt w/Standard + Hvy Bolter + Flamer
- Missile unit
- Sentinel w/Lascannon

Elites
- 8 Veterans w/ Autocannon

Troops
1st Squad HQ JO + H/B + Flamer
Platoon 1 w/ Lascannon
Platoon 2 w/Lascannon

2nd Squad Conscripts led by Commissar with Power Weapon & Trademark Item
Platoon 1 w/ Flamer
Platoon 2 w/Flamer
Platoon 3 w/Flamer

Fast Attack
- Sentinelw/Lascannon
- Sentinel w/Lascannon
- 8 Rough Riders w/ 7 Hunting Lances, Vet Sgt w P/W

Heavy Support
- I Basilisk w/ Indirect Fire
- 2 Leman Russes w/ twin linked heavy bolters.

It was OK against small heavy armies, but Guard see to collapse if caught in hand to hand and/or if big tougher/higher BS armies get into shooting range. The other IG guys all reported that the army collapses once enemy get into 12"

Ideas welcomed.
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Old 15 Apr 2006, 22:11   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud
So...we have about 20 players in our club league, 3 of us played Guard - quite different armie by the way - and we all landed up around the top of the last quartile at the end

We know we are all better players than that as we do pretty well with our other armies (Iron Warriors, Eldar, Dark Eldar etc)

- 1 was a fairly mechanised army
- 1 was a huge infantry based army

Mine was mixed, as below - any suggestions to make it better are welcomed.:

1500 pt IG

Doctrines - Rough Riders, Iron Siscipline, SharpShooters

HQ - SO + P/W, Pistol + Vet Sgt w/Standard + Hvy Bolter + Flamer
- Missile unit
- Sentinel w/Lascannon

Elites
- 8 Veterans w/ Autocannon

Troops
1st Squad HQ JO + H/B + Flamer
Platoon 1 w/ Lascannon
Platoon 2 w/Lascannon

2nd Squad Conscripts led by Commissar with Power Weapon & Trademark Item
Platoon 1 w/ Flamer
Platoon 2 w/Flamer
Platoon 3 w/Flamer

Fast Attack
- Sentinelw/Lascannon
- Sentinel w/Lascannon
- 8 Rough Riders w/ 7 Hunting Lances, Vet Sgt w P/W

Heavy Support
- I Basilisk w/ Indirect Fire
- 2 Leman Russes w/ twin linked heavy bolters.

It was OK against small heavy armies, but Guard see to collapse if caught in hand to hand and/or if big tougher/higher BS armies get into shooting range. The other IG guys all reported that the army collapses once enemy get into 12"

Ideas welcomed.
I think you might have your organization mixed up. A platoon contains squads, a squad doesn't contain platoons! :P

This platoon:
Troops
1st Squad HQ JO + H/B + Flamer
Platoon 1 w/ Lascannon
Platoon 2 w/Lascannon


Would become:

Troop 1:
Platoon Command Squad
Squad 1 w/Lascannon
Squad 2 w/Lascannon
[hr]

A platoon is lead by a command squad ( led by a Junior Officer) and has between 2 to 5 squads under him.

Quote:
Doctrines - Rough Riders, Iron Siscipline, SharpShooters
Hah, Iron Sisipline! Made me laugh!

Although, that's a very good list...but how does a leman russ get twin linked heavy bolters?

Do you own a codex? ???
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Old 15 Apr 2006, 22:38   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

sorry...i do have codex, not with me...got squads/platoons mixed up and L/R has 2 bolters in sponsons, not twin linked.

The list is as effective as I could get it over a number of games, it got more and more Big Guns to counter armour (Sentinels started off with Autocannon for eg)

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Old 17 Apr 2006, 03:30   #4 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

Well, if the list suits your playing style, and it fights effectively, then why ask us?
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Old 17 Apr 2006, 17:03   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

Freecloud,

Going competitive require changes pretty much in my book. And that means, cutting fat and moving away from "trusty" things that simply aren't reliable in real game terms. So let's look at your choices and make some comments on them. And look at what we could do instead.

Quote:
HQ - SO + P/W, Pistol + Vet Sgt w/Standard + Hvy Bolter + Flamer
- Missile unit
- Sentinel w/Lascannon
Personally, a S3 power weapon just isn't worth it for combat; even a cheap one. If you want to do combat, take a fist. It may seem silly, for the cost, but being able to actually kill a marine without hoping for it to happen removes that luck gamble and makes it reality. The problem in all cases though, is that your officer is an ind. character and in combat, will be slain way too easily. My advice: do not upgrade him at all for combat.

Notice the heavy bolter & flamer? Both are good for anti-infantry, but both have very different uses. You probably never use that flamer. I would drop that flamer.

-- The missile unit is ok, but they are BS3. They just don't hit often really. Autocannons, however, do. Lots of shots = hits. Hits are what you need to do damage. I'd suggest you get more autocannons instead of trying to get the AP in there. Guard do better with dakka & non-BS firing devices.

-- Sentinels with lascannons may seem like a good idea, but again, BS3 and they're a walking tin can. I wouldn't go past the autocannon, though really, the laser is just groovy too. Lots of dakka guns while moving is better than that lascannon shot. Hitting with a lascannon can beat a tank, but unless it's A13 or 14, S7 hitting several times simply does the job better. Use other means to bust the hardest of tanks (which I'll go into later).

Quote:
Elites
- 8 Veterans w/ Autocannon
That's alot of points for a little BS4 autocannon which is better fielded elseware. BS4 isn't common for you, so I wouldn't lock it down with just an autocannon. I would use it to your advantage, to use guns that normally need good BS to make work. With infiltration, you can do some better things. Grenade launchers for example. Sure, they seem pathetic. But 3 of them hitting at BS4 are useful at their range. Infiltrating can put you in range immediately. They're very valuable for cracking weak infantry hordes--not marines. Small BS4 templates will chop through mobs of gaunts, guardians, etc. Otherwise, meltaguns are the king of guns for them. You could easily use the Drop Troops doctrine to make units like this very useful. Throwing down 2 BS4 meltas near a tank is an easier way to break it on the turn they arrive (for cheap). After all, you don't have to "deep strike" everything in the army---just the useful stuff. This is one of those squads.

Quote:
Troops
1st Squad HQ JO + H/B + Flamer
Platoon 1 w/ Lascannon
Platoon 2 w/Lascannon
Again, the HB & Flamer combo. I'd go for the autocannon here again.
As for the squads... lascannons are very pricey and only hit half the time. Not very reliable nor efficient. I'd go for autocannons & grenade launchers perhaps.

Have you ever considered a "Light Infantry" setup? Sniper rifles are useful and cause decent damage, as well as infiltration as well as your autocannon. You can wrack up more output from better positions that way if you want. And it's not every squad; just the ones you want.

Quote:
2nd Squad Conscripts led by Commissar with Power Weapon & Trademark Item
Platoon 1 w/ Flamer
Platoon 2 w/Flamer
Platoon 3 w/Flamer
First of all, I'd lose the Commisar completely. Sure, he's a nice source of leadership, but conscripts just don't cut it for competition in my eyes. Instead, find a better way to establish leadership here if you want to keep the conscripts.

In all honesty - for the cost compared to a normal infantry squad, you lose a lot more going to conscripts. Poor BS, poor leadership, poor WS... for the same number of models. The difference between the two squads as a base cost? 20 points squad to squad. Now, consider all the problems of pretty much not being good at anything for that cost difference, compared to being able to be functional without other units like a normal infantry squad can. Suddenly, that little 20 point difference is a world of difference. Leaderhip is important, being able to shoot is important--otherwise, you're just inviting a combat screen to prevent your other units from shooting good targets.

Quote:
Fast Attack
- Sentinelw/Lascannon
- Sentinel w/Lascannon
- 8 Rough Riders w/ 7 Hunting Lances, Vet Sgt w P/W
Again, I'd lose the lascannons. More autocannons will do more over your game so long as they're living.

The rough riders are a tough call. In one way, rough riders can bust vehicles very nicely. Small 6x rider teams with meltabombs make a mess of tanks (not skimmers though). Lances are nice too, but they're even more situational. (1) you have to actually be the one charging; granted that's not too difficult with cavalry. (2) It's over after that initial hit. (3) After that attack, they're pretty much going to die. Also, they're only good at killing heavy infantry. Throwing them at some marines seems great, but to what end? Throwing them at terminators, now that makes plenty of good sense. Throwing them at guardsmen, guardians, orks or gaunts? Well, hopeless cause there.

I would probably drop the rough riders in this situation. If you're having trouble in combat, seek other alternatives. Such as close order drill infantry squads. Otherwise, focus on what guard do best: shooting. Soften things up with autocannons/heavybolters and then seek combat where you'll be on a better terms of fighting after they're weakened.

Quote:
Heavy Support
- I Basilisk w/ Indirect Fire
- 2 Leman Russes w/ twin linked heavy bolters.
I'd drop the bassy completely. She's not competitive under 36 inches. And past that, well, a Russ does everything it does better. Sure, a bassy is good for hitting things you can't see that are hidding, but if they're hiding, they're probably not exactly doing much to you either. That's not always the case, but the point is to use things that are always useful to you. Most of your best shots are within 36 inches on turn 2 and above; putting the bassy out of order.

More heavy bolters would be better for the cost (fire support teams?).

The Russes are great. And take the 3 heavy bolter setup on them too, because sometimes, 9 heavy bolters shots are more effective than a single cannon blast to weak infantry (spread out gaunts for example).

Quote:
Doctrines - Rough Riders, Iron Siscipline, SharpShooters
Drop Sharp Shooters. It's not worth it for the cost. Iron Discipline is perfection. Rough Riders are up to you; but I'd probably lose them. Think about Drop Troops (for vets and other insta "do something good" teams). Think about Close Order Drills to buff you lines in combat--better leadership and imitative gives you a chance within that 12 inch problem you're having. Look at the free doctrines mainly.

In the end, you actually don't have many guns in your list. BS3 cuts in half what you hit. So 5 lascannons is pretty much 2 or 3 hits. Not a lot of damage there. Otherwise, it's very thin in terms of other guns. There's more lascannons than heavy bolters. Heavy bolters are pretty much awesome. I'd wrack them up. Support squads of them are just great.

-- Seek more guns; dakka is better in competition with guard (if you miss; your AP is meaningless).
-- Use doctrines to make combat easier; use shooting to soften combats before they happen.
-- See point one again; get more guns. Use your units for more efficient shooting weapons.

Cheers!
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Old 18 Apr 2006, 06:28   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 394
Default Re: Making IG competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Freecloud,

Going competitive require changes pretty much in my book. And that means, cutting fat and moving away from "trusty" things that simply aren't reliable in real game terms. So let's look at your choices and make some comments on them. And look at what we could do instead.

<snip>

-- Seek more guns; dakka is better in competition with guard (if you miss; your AP is meaningless).
-- Use doctrines to make combat easier; use shooting to soften combats before they happen.
-- See point one again; get more guns. Use your units for more efficient shooting weapons.

Cheers!
Hey Malveaux...you're everywhere

As to your points...I actually started off with Autocannons for nearly all, the HSO, JO with a Powerfist and Plasma. I actually found that Lascannons were better at busting expensive stuff with Sharpshooter (gives sort of BS 3.5) than the Autocannon was. Found that IG are nearly always dead before Powerfist swings, I kill more with that unit using Dakka. However, will re-look at your points.

As to the IC and Conscripts, its the most awsome combat unit I have...kills anything by gumming it down

Rough Riders are a v good combat unit btw.

I will try 3 Russes.


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Old 18 Apr 2006, 06:56   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 394
Default Re: Making IG competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Tyross
Well, if the list suits your playing style, and it fights effectively, then why ask us?
'cos it only got to be in the bottom 25% of club tourney and I can play a lot better with other lists, I want to make IG work...I've painted enough

[Please use the modify button in future to avoid double posting]
JD
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Old 18 Apr 2006, 09:45   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

In my opinion, a "Competitive" Guard army should be SIGAFH.

Building a SIGAFH list is akin to building the ultimate race car... anything that doesn't give you raw power is a waste.

As such, here is a brief guide to building the SIGAFH:

1: Doctrines
No. Doctrines do not blow things up. If it doesn't shoot, it's not SIGAFH.

Sharpshooters is, mistakenly, considered a SIGAFH Doctrine... it is not. It is simply not worth using most of the time, unless you plan to take Anti-Tank squads with triple-lascannon.

Do not touch Carapace. Those points are better spent on more guns.

Same with Hardened Fighters, and just about every other Doctrine.

Close Order Drill is the anti-SIGAFH Doctrine; if you're in combat, you've done something wrong.

In short, go Pure.

2: HQ
Ideally, this should be nothing more than a gun platform. One JO with Heavy Bolter will suffice.

The role of your HQ in Pure SIGAFH is simply to shoot at people. If you really fear close-combat, then you could invest in a HSO with beefed up melee-squad, but SIGAFH is ultimately about blowing your opponent into tiny pieces, so we'll assume that's what you're going to do.

3: ELITES
This entry should be blank, save perhaps for Ratling Snipers. Occassionally, a well-used Veteran or Stormtrooper squad can compliment a SIGAFH force, but remember the First Rule of SIGAFH: blow stuff up.

4: TROOPS
Keep your JOs cheap. A Heavy Bolter is best, as that squad dies pretty easily.

For guns, a good mix is advised. Lascannons are great against tanks, but wasted on hoardes. Likewise, Heavy Bolters won't scratch 12 Armour or higher.

Missile Launchers and Autocannon are wonderful mid-ground armaments.

Special Weapons are entirely optional. However, where taken, go for Grenade Launchers or Plasma; you want that 24" range.

5: FAST ATTACK
Fast Attack tends to fill two key roles for me with SIGAFH:
1) To claim the objective when everyone is dead.
2) To squeeze in more guns.

Hellhounds are a great addition to SIGAFH, as that cannon of theirs can purge hoardes. Sentinels can provide good support, and block enemy assault units.

6: HEAVY SUPPORT
Surprisingly, Heavy Support is not the first port of call for SIGAFH. Ordnance is big and nasty, but that isn't always effective; tanks draw lots of firepower, and can be very expensive.

Like much else in SIGAFH, keep them simple, cheap, and deadly. A stripped down Russ is a popular choice, as is a Griffon Mortar.

7: Sample SIGAFH army
HQ:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
50pts.

TROOPS:
Platoon 1:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
Squad with Autocannon.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Lascannon.
Squad with Lascannon.
445pts

Platoon 2:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
Squad with Autocannon.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Lascannon.
Squad with Lascannon.
445pts

Platoon 3:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
Squad with Autocannon.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Lascannon.
Squad with Lascannon.
445pts

Hellhound.
115pts.

Total: 1,500pts.

Infantry: 280.
Vehicles: 1.
Weapons:
4 Laspistols.
257 Lasguns.
6 Lascannons.
6 Missile Launchers.
4 Heavy Bolters.
3 Autocannon.
1 Inferno Cannon.

If all that doesn't blast your enemy into oblivion, I don't know what will...
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Old 18 Apr 2006, 10:42   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

Shriek!
That's a lot of guardsmen. GLHF on painting that bulk
But looks good. Lots of goodies, but would be in hell at several missions. Like scout...
But...well... you have the opportunity to make a wipe. ;D
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Old 18 Apr 2006, 11:16   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Making IG competitive

Well my Tournament Army list has as many Sentinels I can fit into 1500pts... 12 to be exact. and then I bulk out on guardsmen with heavy weapons, bascally:

HQ:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
50pts.

2 Mars Pattern Sentinels, 1 Cadian Pattern Sentinel.
140pts.

TROOPS:
Platoon 1:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
Squad with Autocannon.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Lascannon.
Squad with Lascannon.
445pts

Platoon 2:
JO with Heavy Bolter.
Squad with Autocannon.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Missile Launcher.
Squad with Lascannon.
Squad with Lascannon.
445pts

FAST ATTACK:
2 Mars Pattern Sentinels, 1 Cadian Pattern Sentinel.
140pts.

2 Mars Pattern Sentinels, 1 Cadian Pattern Sentinel.
140pts.

2 Mars Pattern Sentinels, 1 Cadian Pattern Sentinel.
140pts.


Total: 1,500pts.

That's:
12 Vehicles.
115 Guardsmen.

That's:
24 Multi-laser shots per turn.
12 Autocannon shots per turn.
4 Lascannon shots per turn.
4 Missile Launcher shots per turn.
9 Heavy Bolter shots per turn.
204 Rapid-Fire Lasgun shots per turn.

That's:

A WHOLE LOT OF DIDDLEY!!!
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