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Tau Guardsmen
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Old 01 Apr 2006, 22:33   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Tau Guardsmen

For tau Guardsmen I am debating between two choices, the idea is to play Tau Human Auxiliaries.

Carapace Armour (Tau Armour)
Sharpshooters (Tau Tech)
Grenadiers (Elite Suicidal Veterans)
Heavy Weapon Platoons (drone teams)
Ogryns (imperial armour three had something)

or

Carapace Armour " "
Close Order Drill (stable firing line)
Sharpshooters " "
Heavy Weapons Platoon " "
Conscripts (Feral wild Humans)
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 03:06   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Or you could just use what I do,
Techpreists (Fio)
Genadiers (Tau Improved Lasguns and Carapace armour)
Stormtroopers " " "
And the other 2 of oyur chosing.

Hope it helps, The Mothman
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 03:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Why not use the official GW stats for them?
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 03:20   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Please no Carapace Armour > > :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
Why not use the official GW stats for them?
Yeah, good idea.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 03:23   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/doctrines/2/

There's the link, its the second or third one from trhe top.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 03:24   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Carapace is the most overrated doctrine. It is never worth it's points. Sharpshooters are pretty much only useful on heavy weapons teams. If you combine them you have 9.5 point guardsmen that are barely more effective. For another half point the Tau get pulse rifles.

If you combine those two doctrines, your rarely going to win games because your so troops are such a point sink.

What most people have done is used stormtroopers. You get BS4 instead of sharpshooters, hellguns, targetters, frag and krak grenades, and better vet sarge options all for .5 points compared to carapace/sharpshooters guardsmen.

You can take carapace for command squads though, so your whole army will have it.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 07:12   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Quote:
Carapace is the most overrated doctrine. It is never worth it's points.
??? untrue
Statistically it gives a 50% increase in armour against Lasguns for a 33.3% increase in points. This means that it allows for a 12.5% increase of effectiveness for its points. It also gives you a 50% save vs bolters as opposed to none. This is a 200% increase in protection for the 33% increase in points IE a 50% increase in value for points. One must consider the effect of not having as many meatshields to go around, but I think the above stats made the point.

Quote:
Sharpshooters are pretty much only useful on heavy weapons teams.
? +- true
Sharpshooters give a 1.1666% increase in accuracy for a 7/6 (1.16666%) increase in points. That means net effect is the same.

Quote:
If you combine those two doctrines, your rarely going to win games because your so troops are such a point sink.
++ I agree with your conclusion not the premise
By combining the two you have increased the cost of the guardsman by 50%. These points can be better spent elsewhere. This does not mean that this is a waste spending them here. Like you said:

If you combine those two doctrines, you're rarely going to win games because your troops are such a point sink.

Quote:
What most people have done is used stormtroopers. You get BS4 instead of sharpshooters, hellguns, targetters, frag and krak grenades, and better vet sarge options all for .5 points compared to carapace/sharpshooters guardsmen.
The increase in effectiveness here is a bit dodgy consider ST vs Infantryman: (infantryman doctrines: carapace, COD, Sharpshooters, and frag grenades as equipment)
Stats line out the same with the same effect. The difference is that the ST gets 2 special weapons and all get Hellguns (get back to that in a sec) while troops get a HW. So lets compare a hellgun to a lasgun:
vs IG Hell: no armour save - 50% increase in effectiveness
vs Carapace No Difference between weapons
vs SM No Difference between weapons

So if you're considering taking ST rather than uber grunts consider that the main difference is that the ST are much better on the move (2 Special weapons), while the troops have 1 HW and 1 SW. Your choice.

While I agree with Commander_Vimes in principal, I think that his facts need some fine tuning (like where does the 0.5 points come in? ???) .

So if you want to take these doctrines be really sure you know how to use them. They are arguably worth it points wise, but they change the way that you play the game, and limit the number of troops that you have and the special units (elites, HW etc) that you can field and they also warp the IG's traditional strengths. In my opinion combining the two is suicide, but if it is what you want, go for it.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 17:00   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

SO carapace and sharpshooters don't work together. OK, here is the new Doctrines

Grenadiers
Techpriest
Independent Commissars ( tau advisors)
Carapace
Storm troopers


I will add kroot to the list as Mercs as well.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 19:49   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Basic Guardsman 6 points
Carapace average of 2 points per model
Sharpshooters average of 1.5 points per model
That's for the doctrines applied to a standard guard squad. So you get 9.5 points per guardsman.

A stormtrooopers BS4 is significantly better than sharpshooters. That alone is worth the extra .5 points a model. The grenades I've rarely used, and would never take them if I had a choice, but they're nice to have in a pinch.

The only real disadvantage is they lack a heavy weapon. For my Gue'vassa I went with mechanize stormtroopers, so they heavy weapons were useless. Chimera's easily mulch hordes, and two BS4 plasma guns in the storm trooper squads give reasonable firepower against MEQs. The only area that the army is really weak is anti-tank. You can take sentinels to get some more heavy weapons if you feel you need them.

Wargamer has done some studies on the effectiveness of sharpshooters and carapace (both together and apart), but I don't know where they are. The conclusion was pretty much that they rarely are worth the points.
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Old 02 Apr 2006, 20:07   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Guardsmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiteful

Statistically it gives a 50% increase in armour against Lasguns for a 33.3% increase in points. This means that it allows for a 12.5% increase of effectiveness for its points. It also gives you a 50% save vs bolters as opposed to none. This is a 200% increase in protection for the 33% increase in points IE a 50% increase in value for points. One must consider the effect of not having as many meatshields to go around, but I think the above stats made the point.
I have no wish to run the numbers again, so simply take it on trust that I have done the math, repeatedly, and if you want to see it I suggest you use the Search function.


Carapace is an awful Doctrine.

The only time is it useful is against AP 5 weaponry. AP 6 or less (eg: when "Normal" and "Carapace" Guard both get their save), the VP-value of units killed is equal; more Normal Guard die, but the Carapace are worth more, so each kill is more valuable. Overall, the VP the shooter earns is identical. Thus there is no net value, nor net debenefit.

When both lose their save... the VP racks up massively against Carapace. The VP gulf is mind-boggling, and given how common it is for even AP 4 to be negated, I can find no reason to support this Doctrines as "good"... heck, it doesn't even rank as "poor" in my book.



Now, with regards to the Doctrines... none. At all. Period.

The Tau, contrary to the tripe many Por'Hui would feed you, do not equip the Gue'vesa to Shas standard. They use Lasguns and Flak, like the rest of the Imperium.

Now bear in mind these guys are traitors. They deserted, and/or are the descendents of deserters, traitors and cowards. That hardly smacks of "humanity's finest" to me, and that is what Doctrines are for; the Cadians don't get Doctrines to make them "different", they get them because they are in that top 1% of the Guard.
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