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Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)
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Old 05 Jan 2006, 23:54   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Problem 1 : My Imperial Guard opponent getting first turn = no anti-tank worth speaking of on my side to hit him back with, even with cover being involved and all.

Problem 2 : 1 Leman Russ can kill all my Crisis Battlesuits at once... with one indirect shot that was actually aimed at another squad...

So what's the source of this problem? Why is it that +300 pts of heavy infantry are wasted by 150 or so pts of tank? I present to you two weapons: the Earthshaker gun, and the Battlecannon.

These weapons have enough firepower to kill tanks fairly easily (ok), kill infantry in hordes (pushing it here), and make a huge, nasty mess of heavy infantry (totally overpowered). And before somebody mentions it, forget scattering. My opponent's scatter dice roll Direct Hits 9 out of 10 rolls.

Should the Strength or AP of Imperial Guard ordinance be lowered to balance them out?

Discuss.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:01   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Now I have had a very big argument over those tanks if you need to check, it is called imperial tanks, but the thing is with guard as i learned they need their tanks to support covering fire as they move up.


Without the needed fire power they will die at an increadable rate, you need your crises suits to win battles, they need their tanks to win battles if they dont have support they will die.

But try to think around his fire power.

I hope this helps you.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:06   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

You would think that... until you realize that your opponent has more Lascannons than you can count on your fingers mixed into his Infantry platoons, which are so large that it's nearly impossible to get rid of them all... The ordinance is required, the trouble is that it's too powerful. If my opponent gets first turn, I have nothing left over to shoot him down with reasonable reliability. Unless, of course, he has a really unlucky turn...
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:16   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Well try a new approch.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:24   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Like what, a new army? I've seen Gatler here freak out as everything tried has failed. I can only propose one more option:

Shas'O
Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker, HW Target Lock
Shas'Vre
Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker
Shas'Vre
Flamer, Burst Cannon
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker

3x Deep-Striking Stealth Teams

6x Firewarriors
As many damn Gue'Vesa as you can

3x Railheads

If you get first go, you have a good chance of ruining his firebase with your Railheads. After that, the fun starts - DS everything, using the survivability of 3 tanks and huge infantry mobs (maxed coherency) to have models on the table so you don't auto-lose.

I'll confess that Ordinance shouldn't realy be that big a problem - "Bubbles" just happens to be a beardy player.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:55   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dra-Tuisich'Novae
Like what, a new army? I've seen Gatler here freak out as everything tried has failed. I can only propose one more option:

Shas'O
Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker, HW Target Lock
Shas'Vre
Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker
Shas'Vre
Flamer, Burst Cannon
Shield Genorator, HW Multi-Tracker

3x Deep-Striking Stealth Teams

6x Firewarriors
As many damn Gue'Vesa as you can

3x Railheads

If you get first go, you have a good chance of ruining his firebase with your Railheads. After that, the fun starts - DS everything, using the survivability of 3 tanks and huge infantry mobs (maxed coherency) to have models on the table so you don't auto-lose.

I'll confess that Ordinance shouldn't realy be that big a problem - "Bubbles" just happens to be a beardy player.
I'll try it, but I must correct you on one issue: "Bubbles" is the Tau player that I obliterated in 2 turns. ^-^ Paul's the beardy one. Mind you, I played his 1000 pts list and annihilated him, you were there. He did nothing significant that game, IIRC. More annoyance than anything else. 8) It's his 1500 pts list that's beardy. > I've never beaten it. >

And actually, it seems his army isn't that uncommon among Guard players. I've read articles on the GW website that say most IG armies are based around a Leman Russ, a Basilisk, and a Demolisher, and that some 4th Ed. rules were meant to fix that. For all the good they did...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brood_Lord
Well try a new approch.
For your own good, and with absolutely no spite intended, try to say something a little more helpful than that in future, you might get smited for spamming otherwise.

Could somebody comment on my idea though? Lower the strength of the ordinance so that we don't have it wiping out squads of battlesuits? Infantry and tanks is enough, it doesn't need to do that too... They have legions of heavy weapons platoons with Missile Launchers to do that effectively enough already.

And before somebody says this has been debated recently, I have nothing against the Tanks themselves, it's their bloody guns that I curse.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:59   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

I have a way that you might do some damage- stealth suites with marker lights. smart missile the tanks in the side armor.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 12:54   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

It's not a matter of damaging the tanks. That's easy enough (most of the time). It's a matter of surviving with the capability to do so past turn 1.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 13:19   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Small squads, spread out on wider area.
If you think about it, he has max 3 ordnance templates, and if one of them is a russ, only 2 indirect.

If you get behind terrain, he canīt shoot you with direct fire. If you get behind terrain within 36" of his basilisks, he canīt shoot you at all.

Basilisk is weak against return fire. Crisis suits can pop it with missiles, any other Tau unit can destroy it if they can fire at the side.

Infiltrate stealths, and deepstrike Drones. Stealths should get so close that they canīt be shot with indirect (unless he deploys his basilisks to opposite corners. ) and drones come in later, and you can drop them where you need them, lika close to his basilisk, so you can fire at side/rear armor.

Lascannons are not a real problem to Tau outside suits (who should be able to get out of LOS). They cost a lot, and arenīt that good against hammerhead. Also, firewarriors are usually plentiful enough to be able to take one of two lascannon hits and still hammer the guard squad to ground.
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Old 06 Jan 2006, 17:08   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ordinance too powerful? (and yeah, I know it scatters)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDemon
Small squads, spread out on wider area.
If you think about it, he has max 3 ordnance templates, and if one of them is a russ, only 2 indirect.
Tried it. Result: 2 useless railheads, no battlesuits remaining. He doesn't necessarily shoot it at my infantry. He shoots it at my suits. Indirect. And his scatter dice are cursed to roll direct hits 9 times out of 10.

Quote:
If you get behind terrain, he canīt shoot you with direct fire. If you get behind terrain within 36" of his basilisks, he canīt shoot you at all.
Very true, unless he gets first turn. Then there's nothing left to get within 36" of his basilisks thats capable of hurting him.

Quote:
Basilisk is weak against return fire. Crisis suits can pop it with missiles, any other Tau unit can destroy it if they can fire at the side.
Assuming, once again, that there's anything left worth speaking of to return fire with.

Quote:
Infiltrate stealths, and deepstrike Drones. Stealths should get so close that they canīt be shot with indirect (unless he deploys his basilisks to opposite corners. ) and drones come in later, and you can drop them where you need them, lika close to his basilisk, so you can fire at side/rear armor.
That has worked in the past. The local bloke has countered by placing his tanks so that their rear armour is against the edge of the board, thwarting any attempt to shoot at it.

Quote:
Lascannons are not a real problem to Tau outside suits (who should be able to get out of LOS). They cost a lot, and arenīt that good against hammerhead. Also, firewarriors are usually plentiful enough to be able to take one of two lascannon hits and still hammer the guard squad to ground.
Of course not. The problem is the 50+ guardsmen that rapid fire back after I annihilate one of their squads... They may be Lasguns, but Lasguns add up.

A simple reduction in the AP of the Battlecannon and the Earthshaker to, say, 4, would greatly increase the chances of a player surviving past turn 2, not accounting for tactical genius. It would make the Guard player have to think, rather than just point at a unit (squad, vehicle, whatever), say it dies, and have it be so without a fuss.

Heavy Infantry is not meant to be killed by templates. They're simply too expensive.

Dra'Tuisiche Novae, I thought about your idea and there's one problem with it: a guard player can bring more Lasguns in one troops choice than Tau can bring in all our troops choices combined. It's probably best to bring Fire Warriors anyways, they're much more efficient.
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