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Need help with New gaurd army.
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Old 05 Dec 2005, 22:33   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Need help with New gaurd army.

I'm starting gaurd Again but the rules are far diffrent compared to 3rd editon so i made a new list.
Plese help make beter.
Trying to only keep with heavy bolters,autocannons,plasma guns,meltas.
All opents will be marines.

The 3rd Armored infantry
130 HQ: Heroic Senor officer, 1meltagun, 2plasma guns, 1vox,Power Wepon, storm bolter, carapace.

152 Elite: 2indapendant commisars, 2bolt pistols, 2power fists, and 2carapace armor.

211 Troops: 1Vet.Sgt, 6storm troopers, 1melta, and 1plasma,power fist (Sword used as fist), storm bolter, camoline, chimera/w 2heavy bolters, vox.

411 Troops: junior oficer, 3melta guns, 1plasma gun, carapace, melta bombs, and power fist bolt pistol.126
2infantry squads, 2 plasma guns, 2vox,carapace, camoline.210
1 fire support squadwith 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon, camoline.95

155 Heavy support: Leman Russ 3 Heavy bolters.

1060points
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Old 06 Dec 2005, 07:11   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

what doctrines are you using? im guessing grenadiers since you put your stormtroopers under troops, in which case they are actually grenadiers. your stormtrooper sargeant can't take a powerfist since its officer only, i wouldn't bother giving him one anyways.

i would get rid ofl most of the special weapons in your JO squad, a plasma cannon or heavy bolter salvo could eat up 126 points, also the melta bombs are useless unless you want to get that squad into combat with a tank, in which case your HSO will do better, not to mention you already have 3 melta guns the bombs are over-kill to anything within charge range, too many points spent on the JO squad.

Since you didn't put heavy weapons in your squads i''d recommend you disband the fire support squad. You'll have alot of points left over after getting rid of special and heavy weapons, so i'd recommend getting mroe infantry and then putting the disbanded heavyweapons in them.(maybe some lascannons if you an afford it)
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Old 06 Dec 2005, 07:59   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T pok
I'm starting gaurd Again but the rules are far diffrent compared to 3rd editon so i made a new list.
Plese help make beter.
Trying to only keep with heavy bolters,autocannons,plasma guns,meltas.
All opents will be marines.

The 3rd Armored infantry
130 HQ: Heroic Senor officer, 1meltagun, 2plasma guns, 1vox,Power Wepon, storm bolter, carapace.

152 Elite: 2indapendant commisars, 2bolt pistols, 2power fists, and 2carapace armor.

211 Troops: 1Vet.Sgt, 6storm troopers, 1melta, and 1plasma,power fist (Sword used as fist), storm bolter, camoline, chimera/w 2heavy bolters, vox.

411 Troops: junior oficer, 3melta guns, 1plasma gun, carapace, melta bombs, and power fist bolt pistol.126
2infantry squads, 2 plasma guns, 2vox,carapace, camoline.210
1 fire support squadwith 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon, camoline.95

155 Heavy support: Leman Russ 3 Heavy bolters.

1060points
Wow...that's a really bad list. Let's see what we can do here. You say it's specifically against marines? Well, that's a start.

Ok, I understand the desire to take carapace armor, after all, it gets a save against bolter fire...which makes your lasguns live a little longer, but doesn't help them kill marines. Second, never combine carapace armor with chamelioline. It's a waste of points. If you're in the open, the chamelioline is wasted. If you're in cover, your adjusted cover save will usually be at least 4+, so the carapace is wasted. If it was me, I'd keep the chamelioline and drop the carapace...especially since carapace brings WYSIWYG problems with it, and camoflage paint jobs adequately represent chamelioline cloth.

Ok, let's take these units one at a time.

HQ: 13% of your entire force is way too much to spend on your command squad. You need to decide on one function for the squad, and stick to it. If they're going to be shooty, drop the HSO to an SO or even JO. Also, decide what weapons to give them, and give them four of them. Mixing is a bad idea, given BS3. 2 plasma guns will do a lot less at 24" than 4 will, and one lone melta won't do much against vehicles. If they're just there to give LD9 through the vox, drop the special weapons, take a medic and a mortar, and hide them behind a hill. Trying to do both will result in them doing neither one very well...for a bunch of points that will get them targeted (IG at 26 points a model!)

Elites: Why in the world did you take independent comissars??? The only thing that would justify the extra points cost of making them independent is to put them into conscript platoons. Also, the powerfists are a joke, at S6. Much better to take power swords. Carapace is not a bad idea, I guess. My recommendation? Go with the leadership-providing HQ above, and give them a basic 40 point commissar, save these points....cause two independent commissars running amok on the battlefield is pointless...they still have T3, remember, and with powerfists, they'll strike last in combat (which, I imagine, was your plan for them).

Troops:

I assume you're using the grenadiers doctrine. Keep in mind that grenadiers and stormtroopers are not at all the same thing. Look closely at the codex to see the difference. Oh and no powerfist! And chamelioline is not only pointless on this squad, it may be illegal. As for your platoon, once again, powerfists are a bad idea for S3 models. mixing meltas and plasmas is a bad idea. And melta bombs will never get used. mixing chamelioline and carapace is a waste of points. Nothing wrong with the fire support squad...except that it belongs in HQ, it's not part of a "troops" platoon.

Heavy support:

3 heavy bolters is fantastic! Too many people try to mix heavy bolters and lascannons, which have very different properties, on the same vehicle. I would suggest trying to take two leman russes in 1000 points. Battle cannons are about the only thing in this list that will kill a decent number of marines. With just one, you could be dead in the water on turn one due to a lucky lascannon shot. Best to have backup, since this unit will be your key to victory against marines.


For 1000 points, this list doesn't have enough troops. 45 infantry models and 2 vehicles is terrible. Your infantry are costing you an average of 17 points a model. That's too much pork. You need to dump the carapace and stick to chamelioline, and seriously reduce the wargear (powerfists, blech). What's really killing you, though, is the 75 point commissars. Just eliminating those two models and the carapace brings you down to a healthier 11-12 points per infantry model...but you really need to be around 10.

This list will be absolutely thrashed by any marine list on the planet. 45 models with 4+ saves and toughness 3 will last about 2-3 turns against 1000 points of marines. Even if the marines average 25 points per model, they can bring 40 models against your 45, and theirs have 3+ saves and toughness 4. You aren't making use of the three advantages that IG has, the ability to bring a ton of heavy weapons, high model count, and ordnance templates. Your special weapons force you to get close to the enemy, who will promptly charge you and eat your lunch in hand to hand. Heavy weapons will let you sit farther away and shoot for more turns before he gets close. Your model count is so low that casualties are as big a concern for you as they are for him, except that your troops are much easier to kill. Ordnance templates speak for themselves, especially the kind with AV14.

Overall, this list needs a LOT of work, these comments should get you started in the right direction.
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Old 06 Dec 2005, 21:09   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

I can't take the carapace or camoline away. I'm going to play on trench board in wich case i need camoline in defence and carapace. I'll use normal commisars and put 1 in the storm troopers. Also my oponets are useing many scout and termie armys with a lot of land speeders. and rinos.

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Old 07 Dec 2005, 09:16   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

And what, exactly, is the carapace going to do for you inside a trench???? Chamelioline in a trench is probably a 3+ cover save....carapace is wasted points, like I said before. Surely, you don't imagine you get more than one save?

Anyway, you can't put a commie in the grenadiers squad unless you alread have one in the HQ command squad and the platoon command squad....which means 3 commies, but by not making them independent, you certainly have the points to take three...

Well, the fire support squad makes a lot of sense for shooting landspeeders and rhinos...but the fact that you're planning to sit in a trench and dare the enemy to come to you makes it even stranger that you're taking special weapons instead of heavy weapons. Why wouldyou rather have a 12" or at most 24" ranged weapon when you could get a 36" or 48" ranged weapon? I'd put heavy bolters and autocannons in the squads instead of plasma guns and meltaguns.
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Old 07 Dec 2005, 20:54   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

Eventally i'm going to have to go to no mans land to kill what th opponet still has.

Basicly my new list:

The 3rd Armored infantry
130 HQ: Heroic Senor officer, 1meltagun, 2plasma guns, 1vox,Power Wepon, storm bolter, carapace.

HQ: 3 commisars, 3bolt pistols, 3power fists, and 3carapace armor.

211 Troops: 1Vet.Sgt, 6storm troopers, 1melta, and 1plasma, storm bolter, camoline, chimera/w 2heavy bolters, vox.

Troops: junior oficer, 4melta guns, carapace,power sword,bolt pistol.126
2infantry squads, 2 plasma guns, 2vox,carapace, camoline.210
1 fire support squadwith 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon, camoline.95

155 Heavy support: Leman Russ 3 Heavy bolters.
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Old 07 Dec 2005, 21:04   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

I suggest making the HQ single functioned. Get up close and blast, o sit and fire at the enemy until its within reach, then jump!
A melta gun will be useless for 12" in a squad that fires without moving.
2 Plasma guns are worthless in a squad that runs forward [or drives]. Plasma pistols would be better...
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Old 07 Dec 2005, 21:13   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

Okay how bout this:

Grey night hero-(not the bro captin)

130 HQ: Heroic Senor officer, 1 medic, 2plasma guns, 1vox,Power Wepon, storm bolter, carapace.

HQ: 3 commisars, 3bolt pistols, 3power fists, and 3carapace armor.

211 Troops: 1Vet.Sgt, 6storm troopers, 1melta, and 1plasma, storm bolter, camoline, chimera/w 2heavy bolters, vox.

Troops: junior oficer, 4melta guns, carapace,power sword,bolt pistol.126
2infantry squads, 2 plasma guns, 2vox,carapace, camoline.210
1 fire support squadwith 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon, camoline.95

155 Heavy support: Leman Russ 3 Heavy bolters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savon Saal
brave kid, i don't know if i could do that. whichever girl gets you for life is the luckiest in the world.
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Old 07 Dec 2005, 21:21   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k
Quote:
Originally Posted by T pok
I'm starting gaurd Again but the rules are far diffrent compared to 3rd editon so i made a new list.
Plese help make beter.
Trying to only keep with heavy bolters,autocannons,plasma guns,meltas.
All opents will be marines.

The 3rd Armored infantry
130 HQ: Heroic Senor officer, 1meltagun, 2plasma guns, 1vox,Power Wepon, storm bolter, carapace.

152 Elite: 2indapendant commisars, 2bolt pistols, 2power fists, and 2carapace armor.

211 Troops: 1Vet.Sgt, 6storm troopers, 1melta, and 1plasma,power fist (Sword used as fist), storm bolter, camoline, chimera/w 2heavy bolters, vox.

411 Troops: junior oficer, 3melta guns, 1plasma gun, carapace, melta bombs, and power fist bolt pistol.126
2infantry squads, 2 plasma guns, 2vox,carapace, camoline.210
1 fire support squadwith 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon, camoline.95

155 Heavy support: Leman Russ 3 Heavy bolters.

1060points
Wow...that's a really bad list.* Let's see what we can do here.* You say it's specifically against marines?* Well, that's a start.

Ok, I understand the desire to take carapace armor, after all, it gets a save against bolter fire...which makes your lasguns live a little longer, but doesn't help them kill marines.* Second, never combine carapace armor with chamelioline.* It's a waste of points.* If you're in the open, the chamelioline is wasted.* If you're in cover, your adjusted cover save will usually be at least 4+, so the carapace is wasted.* If it was me, I'd keep the chamelioline and drop the carapace...especially since carapace brings WYSIWYG problems with it, and camoflage paint jobs adequately represent chamelioline cloth.

Ok, let's take these units one at a time.

HQ:* 13% of your entire force is way too much to spend on your command squad.* You need to decide on one function for the squad, and stick to it.* If they're going to be shooty, drop the HSO to an SO or even JO.* Also, decide what weapons to give them, and give them four of them. Mixing is a bad idea, given BS3.* 2 plasma guns will do a lot less at 24" than 4 will, and one lone melta won't do much against vehicles.* If they're just there to give LD9 through the vox, drop the special weapons, take a medic and a mortar, and hide them behind a hill.* Trying to do both will result in them doing neither one very well...for a bunch of points that will get them targeted (IG at 26 points a model!)

Elites:* Why in the world did you take independent comissars???* The only thing that would justify the extra points cost of making them independent is to put them into conscript platoons.* Also, the powerfists are a joke, at S6.* Much better to take power swords.* Carapace is not a bad idea, I guess.* *My recommendation?* Go with the leadership-providing HQ above, and give them a basic 40 point commissar, save these points....cause two independent commissars running amok on the battlefield is pointless...they still have T3, remember, and with powerfists, they'll strike last in combat (which, I imagine, was your plan for them).

Troops:

I assume you're using the grenadiers doctrine.* Keep in mind that grenadiers and stormtroopers are not at all the same thing.* Look closely at the codex to see the difference.* Oh and no powerfist!* And chamelioline is not only pointless on this squad, it may be illegal.* As for your platoon, once again, powerfists are a bad idea for S3 models.* mixing meltas and plasmas is a bad idea.* And melta bombs will never get used.* mixing chamelioline and carapace is a waste of points.* Nothing wrong with the fire support squad...except that it belongs in HQ, it's not part of a "troops" platoon.

Heavy support:

3 heavy bolters is fantastic!* Too many people try to mix heavy bolters and lascannons, which have very different properties, on the same vehicle.* I would suggest trying to take two leman russes in 1000 points.* Battle cannons are about the only thing in this list that will kill a decent number of marines.* With just one, you could be dead in the water on turn one due to a lucky lascannon shot.* Best to have backup, since this unit will be your key to victory against marines.


For 1000 points, this list doesn't have enough troops.* 45 infantry models and 2 vehicles is terrible.* Your infantry are costing you an average of 17 points a model.* That's too much pork.* You need to dump the carapace and stick to chamelioline, and seriously reduce the wargear (powerfists, blech).* What's really killing you, though, is the 75 point commissars.* Just eliminating those two models and the carapace brings you down to a healthier 11-12 points per infantry model...but you really need to be around 10.

This list will be absolutely thrashed by any marine list on the planet.* 45 models with 4+ saves and toughness 3 will last about 2-3 turns against 1000 points of marines.* Even if the marines average 25 points per model, they can bring 40 models against your 45, and theirs have 3+ saves and toughness 4.* You aren't making use of the three advantages that IG has, the ability to bring a ton of heavy weapons, high model count, and ordnance templates.* Your special weapons force you to get close to the enemy, who will promptly charge you and eat your lunch in hand to hand.* Heavy weapons will let you sit farther away and shoot for more turns before he gets close.* Your model count is so low that casualties are as big a concern for you as they are for him, except that your troops are much easier to kill.* Ordnance templates speak for themselves, especially the kind with AV14.

Overall, this list needs a LOT of work, these comments should get you started in the right direction.*
somebody give him some karma....

well, the list is making progress. you do however need more men. it's simply not enough, and i found this out the hard way.

note. I'm going to stab you if your spelling gets any worse
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Old 07 Dec 2005, 21:25   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with New gaurd army.

Who are you going to stab?

He should get karma. I tried that list this morning and I did better than I have with my Tau.

Now I need to test the one with a Grey night.
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