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The Allies Poll
View Poll Results: Allied contingents in IG lists: Your Thoughts?
I don't much use 'em, but don't fault others when they include them. 3 8.33%
The forces of the Imperium are many faceted, and I love the fluff aspects of allied contingents. 15 41.67%
I don't much use 'em, but don't fault others when they include them. 8 22.22%
Ultimately, taking allies weakens a Guard list. 4 11.11%
Allies! A Pox on You! Allies are for cheezeballs! 6 16.67%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30 Nov 2005, 03:58   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default The Allies Poll

I've been told/asked a few times now to do the Allies thing as a poll instead of a straight thread. So here y'are.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 11:05   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Believe it or not, this one was hard. Shooty allies, like a deathwatch squad with one of those funny ammo types, isn't really cheesy. That one would fall under the "weakens the list" heading, and potentially under the "fluffy" heading. Ultimately, though, nobody takes allies in a guard list for their shooting abilities (assassins excepted, of course), they take them to get points-efficient assault units, which is always cheese of the purest sort. GW intended for assault elements in a guard force to be hideously expensive, in terms of points efficiency, and allied assault units just plain aren't.

So, allies as a concept, not cheesy, but not needed either. Allies for the express purpose of deleting the army's weakness (offensive assault capability, in the case of IG) on the cheap...that's cheesy. And anyone doing it isn't ready to move on from space marines to something a little more challenging.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 11:16   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Allies should compliment the Guard's strengths, not try to cover their weaknesses. The fact that Guard are poor in close combat is one of the factors that balances the army. Take that out, and you've got an unbalanced, and thus unfair, army.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 17:44   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Hmmm, Games Workshop design team thinks it's balanced for guard to take HTH combat allies, but some people on an online forum think it's unbalanced.

Gee, I wonder who I should believe. :

Seriously, the ability to take lots of allies is supposed to be an advantage that guard and loyalist marine armies have, that's why they wrote the codexes the way they did.

If you disagree, then write GW and disagree with them.* As for me, I don't need the approval of the people on Tau Online when deciding what allies I will and will not include in my army.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 19:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Is this the same line of reasoning that says "There's no such thing as cheeze!" despite the GW designers turning around and saying "Cheeze exists"?
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 20:38   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Allies should compliment the Guard's strengths, not try to cover their weaknesses. The fact that Guard are poor in close combat is one of the factors that balances the army. Take that out, and you've got an unbalanced, and thus unfair, army.
space marines are good in close combat, but can still outshoot most things. they are very tough and resiliant but still quick. they are disciplined and brave(arguably) and also get the best quipment. in short they have no weakness, and yet most SMurf players lose. wether an army is great at one thing or balanced is irrelevant to how good they are.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 21:12   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

On balance, I reckon I'm with Elessar, and to a lesser extent both Doc Thunder and march10k, on this one. In this thread, anyway.

It does seem to me that any army, no matter how mechanically amazing, has the capacity to get beat. Ultimately, it's all in the tactics, though I'll certainly concede that a bad run of dice rolls can undo even the most amazing plans. In that respect, the idea of taking allies doesn't seem to me to be the great panacea to all perceived ills in the Guard list.

march10k, it looks like you're softening your stance a little bit ("allies as a concept, not cheezy") from your hard line in the other Allies thread. And I can certainly respect what you're saying here. Maybe my own Ally woes stemmed from taking Sisters of Battle for more shootiness, which I then tried to use in close combat. And it, you know, didn't work. :P

Maybe that's the real weakness inherent in using allies: you're drawing two wholly different force types, that operate in wholly separate and distinct ways. Blending the styles and strengths of allies with your regular Guard would seem to be the big challenge, and thus where armies with allied contingents can go so horribly wrong.
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Old 30 Nov 2005, 22:16   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

Tough choice here. I chose the middle option (don't care if they're taken or not) because I believe in the 4th option (allies weaken the list, so I don't use 'em and don't care/prefer my enemies do).

Really, if you're looking to add some melee capabilites to an IG list, you'll be hard-pressed to find a better unit than roughriders. Sure, they're a one-hit wonder, but they're pretty cheap, and that one hit is pretty hard. Besides, a decent IG list should be shooting enemy units down anyway, so you hopefully won't have many enemies assaulting you, so tons of melee troops shouldn't be a real need.
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Old 01 Dec 2005, 02:31   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

The main purpose of this game is to have fun and tell a story, then win. the allies available to the Ig are exceptionaly fluffy(ordos maleous, assassinorium, and hereticus the top) as for cheese, only players who have run out of ideas, or are two cheap/lazy to get new units for their armys cry cheese. as most 'cheese armys' Ive heard of are mearly one dimensional armys who happen to be the nemesis for the cryers current force. as for Vanilla Marines "always losing" what kind of marine commanders are you playing against. Nillrines have to be the most tacticly flexible, and forgiving army in the game. its nearly imposible to mess up with them. the ones Im familiar with win just as often as they lose.
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Old 01 Dec 2005, 02:33   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Allies Poll

what do you mean "combat impared"? Im focusing on making an assult army... without warrior weapons. (special equipment doctrine)
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