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Dealing with assaulty marines...
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 07:09   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Default Dealing with assaulty marines...

I'm having a very hard time dealing with assaulty marines in ~1000 (usually 100-200 points over) pt games.

I swap my forces around every game, but usually I am infantry heavy no tanks, bare bones command squads, conscripts + ind commie, plasmaguns and missile launchers in my normal squads (the friends I play with are all SM or CSM), I have a few laser cannon models that I swap in for some missiles if I know my enemy is going to be using tanks (they usually don't).

Anyways, this is my problem. One of my friends who played shooty SM switched his army to choppy marines and loaded up on assault troops. He basically has two scout squads with missile launchers, a devastator squad with heavy bolters and a transport, and then sinks most of everything else into a chappie and large number of assault marines.

I am thinking maybe I need a Russ or Hellhound to force him to devote some resources to anti-tank so my conscripts can do a better job tripping him up?
Or just get more conscripts? Right now I'm at 3 squads.
Also, I don't use Stormies or Vets, I am thinking Vets with lots of plasma/infiltrating stormies with plasma with reduced conscripts and no commie? Maybe sacrifice some weapons for both? I think stormies would get chewed up by that devastator squad before they could really hurt it, though.
Are missile launchers or autocannons better for dealing with C/SM Troops?

Just some things:
I love plasma guns. I usually don't get much overheating, and I'm almost entirely facing power armor so being all plasma isn't so bad, I think.
Plasma cannons, on the other hand, I've never used, are they worth it?

I don't like Ogryns or Rough Riders.

I'm so frustrated, I'm thinking of driving a Russ directly at his devastator squad and tank shocking it, just out of spite.

Anyways, any advice would be nice, thanks.
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 10:57   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

what i would use it alot of tanks. Bare bones infantry platoons and leman russes. If you don't get heavy weapons you might actually want to throw in a massive conscript platoon. so
HSO=70
Infantry platoon
JO=40
Squad 1= 60
Squad 2= 60
Conscript platoon(5)= 200
Independant Commissar=50
Leman Russ(lascannon bolters= 165
Leman Russ(lascannon bolters= 165
Leman Russ(lascannon bolters= 165
thats 975 points, if your doing 1200 then you can use the rest for equipment. i suggest an honorifca imperials in there, plenty of power swords especialy on you commissar, HSO and Honorifica guy. If youve have them you could also give up a leman russ and take some grey knight allies.
If your doing a 1000 pointer i suggest you hand out some power swords or iron dicipline for your commissar, the most important thing to remember when using conscripts is too keep them inline so always have the commissar with them. They're crap but i once had my conscript squad slowly gum a greyknight terminator squad to death. The thing to remember with conscipts is this A) they die just as easly agaisnt space marines as normal guards do so use them as shields B) Useless without commissars C) If you throw in a commissar with honorifica imperials and a powerfist you can use the conscripts as extra wounds for him so he can eat up any space marines
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 17:39   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Plasma Cannons are *fantastic*.* If you can squeeze a Demolisher onto your list, do it.* Drop the conscripts, create a second infantry platoon, and upgrade one Russ to Demolisher status.

I also applaud your lack of fear for plasma.* Too many consider it a risk not worth taking, but if you want to sow panic, plasma's absolutely the way to go.*

It sounds a lot like what you're doing in these games is shooting as much as you can and hoping to thin him out before he makes your line.* Abandon the line, along with the conscripts.* Take the Drop Troops doctrine, and build your platoon command squad as a plasma-loaded suicide squad (JO with Plasma Pistol, 4 guardsmen with plasma guns).* Then drop them in behind his devastator squad and light 'em up.*

Do the same thing with a Hardened Veteran squad.* Give 'em as many plasma guns as you can, and a Missile Launcher.* Then drop them someplace away from your line, and maybe behind his.* And then let fly.* 10 men with rapidfire weapons, plasma guns, and a missile launcher AND BS 4 isn't something he can ignore.* And if he turns to go after the vets, they get shot by somebody else.

Principally, you want to make the Marines choose a direction, rather than storming a single line where they can Sweeping Advance you off the table.* Break up the charge with pie-plates from your Russes/Demolisher.

In fact, if you want to get absolutely crazy, drop EVERYTHING.* Deploy your tanks in some flavor of cover so the devastators don't waste 'em, and then let his assault troops start their advance.* Then, when he gets half way across the table, drop everybody in a circle around them and pour fire into the unit.* If he moves slow to try and minimize that sort of tactic, you pie plate the c**p out of his troops while they crawl across the table.

Remember:* As an assault-only group, he's a one-trick pony.* If you deny him his trick, he's a sitting duck.
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 17:41   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Close Order Drill with massed ranks of infantry. Shoot him while he charges forwards, and then repell his assault with sheer weight of Guardsmen!

Just don't do that when they have Whirlwinds. Those hurt.

~Andromidius
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 17:55   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

It seems to me that trying to beat the choppy marines at their own game would be futile. Rather than attempting to convert your shooty superior guard into a mediocre-at-best assault army to play the close combat game, just slow down the assault with some sacrificial cannon fodder and keep shooting. *I think the hellhound idea is a good one if he lacks anti-tank weapons. Gotta watch out that he cant assault your tanks with melta bombs or p-fists - if his army has lots of those then the tank approach is probably not good either.
*My meagre army has very little in the way of assault ability and seems to get slaughtered by enemy close combat stuff too, *and i am finding the best way to deal with an opponent with big choppy units is to sacrifice some squad to slow them down, while the rest of the army blows up whatever isnt stuck in combat. the most obvious choice is a big glob of conscripts - lacking the models for that, *i have used the jr. officer squad from my infantry platoon or sometimes a cannon fodder regular squad with little or no upgrades... countercharge his big chaplain-and-choppy squad with something cheap, expendable, but that it will take him a while to kill and the rest of your army can go about its business shooting stuff without worrying about his wave of death rolling down the flank.
The ideal is to busy his killer assault squad for a turn or two while you reposition out of charge range, wait until your little fodder troops either die or break, and then open up on him with all your shooty glory before he can engage another of your squads in cc.
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 18:08   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Really, anything AP 3 is a good choice, and no tank is a better choppy SM army scorge than the Demolisher. It can be outfitted with weapons all with AP 2 or less, is fairly cheap for its tangible uses, and is a very good choice because you don't have to worry about range with them rushing your line. Remember, a Strength 10 pie-plte isn't something to be sneezed at. You will automaticlly glance his Rhinos (he will probably be utilizing these as they are excellent for choopy SMs, and are very cheap. You will also allow no armour save and instant kill everything but a Daemon Prince, who can be brought down with multi-meltas.
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 19:40   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Thanks guys,

I played him at lunch today. I don't have a Demolisher model, though we really don't care about WYSIWYG, I wanted to try the cheaper Hellhound, which I do have. I took the suggestion of drop troops with lots of plasma (no missiles though), I had to drop most of my heavy weapons and some infantry to make it all fit (1000 game). He switched his devs to missile launchers to take care of my hellhound (I figured he would take lascannons, but he wanted to be able to take on my troops too).

Anyways, getting rid of those heavy bolters was wonderful, and he only managed to glance -> no shooting on the first turn (from a side armor hit from one of the scouts), even with the 4 devs and the scouts shooting at it. My conscripts managed to bayonet charge his marines, but mostly just got chopped up. A bit later my deepstriking troops (2 squads) arrived, scatters on both but it wasn't too bad.

So I realized I had a good tactic here. He didn't have enough guns to take care of my hellhound and my deepstriking squads before they would meat grind him. He figured plasma was more dangerous and fired his devs at one of my deepstriking squads, killing a bunch with some lucky rolls but not all, leaving the plasma intact, while his scouts took potshots at the other squad. He also tried to tank shock my wounded squad, but failed. My hellhound, the next round, flamed and incinerated a squad of scouts(pure luck!), and both deep strikers rapid fired into his dev squad, it was beautiful, not a single overheat, and he lost 1 of his dev heavy weapons.

By the end of the game his devs were down to 1 missile launcher, 1 half-strength scout squad, and his assault marines had just beat their way through my conscripts (he managed to kill my commie, so the conscripts all turned tail, the cowards), but by that time I had 2 plasma cannons 1 missile launcher and a bunch of plasma guns in his face, since he was a bit too far away to consolidate into my lines. He just didn't have enough guns or troops to face me down

I think my sudden departure from my normal tactics is what won me the game, and the fact that my Hellhound took 6 missiles and barely got scratched, then got very lucky in flaming the scouts. If my Hellhound had died on the first round, he would've fragged at least one of my deep striking squads into submission. Also I got first turn, so I managed to get my conscripts up out of consolidation range of my main lines, which really helped against his assault troops.
Also, Vets are great, BS4 makes a difference, especially with so many special weapons.

I've nullified his devastator squad, which I see now was really my big problem, and I expect he's trying to figure out how to beat me now. In his position I would turn his useless scout squads into CC and use them to charge my drop troopers, and use his devs with maybe 2 missiles 2 lascannons to take out my hellhound.
I'm thinking the Hellhound is good, even just as a fire magnet, maybe I'll downgrade to a chimera for a squad of vets for the points. Maybe infiltrate some stormies with plasma (vets can't infiltrate, right?) instead of drop troops or a transport, since his dev squad isn't going to be able to kill them so easily.
What do you all think of this?


I wanted to ask, how good are autocannons vs. marines? I've never used them. I really like the plasma cannons, but I'm thinking cheaper autocannons might work less well, but within tolerances?
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 19:43   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Veterans CAN Inflitrate.

Autocannons aren't good against Marines, due to being AP4. Statistically Missile Launchers kill more effeciently.

~Andromidius
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 19:45   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Why does anyone waste their time with Stormies when Vets are almost as good?
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Old 15 Oct 2005, 19:50   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Dealing with assaulty marines...

Because they have Carapace Armour and Targetters.

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