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40K scale
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Old 08 Sep 2005, 11:36   #1 (permalink)
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Default 40K scale

40K scale is appauling in terms of numbers. In World War II, Germany suffered five million (5,000,000) military losses... almost ten times the number of Imperial troops involed in the Eye of Terror campaign.

This leads us to two conclusions: that planets are much less populated in the 41st millenium, or GW are total bloody morons. I'm assuming on the latter. Thus I wish to give some more realistic scales for some of our less-understood armies:

Tau
A Tau Cadre consists of 100 firewarriors, plus drones, vehicles and crews.

Cadres are formed into contingents of 6-12 Cadres, commanded by an experienced Shas'El.

These number-cadres are formed into larger still formations, consisting of three to five number cadres (between 18 and 60 Cadres... 1,800 to 6,000 Tau), usually led by a Shas'O. These are referred to as Great Cadres.


Realistically, Tau could not operate on smaller sizes than this. 6,000 Firewarriors would be the absolute minimum to garisson a small outpost, whereas larger settlements would have closer to 600,000 Firewarriors or more.

Imperial Guard:
Each Guard regiment is 2-8,000 strong. This much we know, and 8-16,000 seems to be about right for an isolated Garisson (plus supporting units, obviously).

Where scale goes haywire is large scale offensives. EoT had a pittance in terms of manpower; Cadia alone should have provided at least 50 million Guardsmen, same with Armageddon (average hive world population in excess of 500 billion, yet Armageddon only raised 160 Regiments to defend its world... at most, 1.28 million troops; 0.000256% of the planet's population. With Armageddon, the Guard numbers raised there alone should have been at least 10% of the population; 50 billion Guardsmen.

So as a guideline, whenever the fluff mentions a campaign, check the scale. Damocles would have been nothing more than a scouting offensive, expecting nothing more than primitives, or Ork-level warband forces.
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Old 08 Sep 2005, 12:29   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

A Tau Cadre consists of 100 firewarriors, plus drones, vehicles and crews.

Cadres are formed into contingents of 6-12 Cadres, commanded by an experienced Shas'El.

These number-cadres are formed into larger still formations, consisting of three to five number cadres (between 18 and 60 Cadres... 1,800 to 6,000 Tau), usually led by a Shas'O. These are referred to as Great Cadres.

Realistically, Tau could not operate on smaller sizes than this. 6,000 Firewarriors would be the absolute minimum to garisson a small outpost, whereas larger settlements would have closer to 600,000 Firewarriors or more.


this seems realistic to me. 6.000 fire warriors for a small expedition? and generally, tau fight on the IG scale of "raids". Don't forget either, wargamer that the hunter cadre makes up a tiny element of the tau warmachine. heavier thingies, like mantas etc make up the main force.

don't forget wargamer that alien auxiliaries make up the main force of a tau expedition. the above tau fly around them.

I do agree though on a larger scale, a shas'o would need 200+ cadres to accomplish any decently sized operation. 20k tau? acceptible, i think for their small scale(by comparison) operations. Still, poor shas'o will have a headache dealing with it all!

Would there then be a commanding shas'o (with 4 previous commands) in charge of a bunch of lesser shas'os who would command the 18-60 cadres you mention? Perhaps the overall "warmaster" is merely a figurehead for the shas'ar'tol.
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Old 09 Sep 2005, 00:54   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

I think its the small populations.
Since they're galaxies so big, it makes sense that there are less people on each planet.



you know what nvm.
I guess G.W. are bloody morons
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Old 09 Sep 2005, 03:28   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Interesting post. Are there any estimates on Necron unit dispositions? Numbers per tomb world?
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Old 09 Sep 2005, 03:28   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Yea there are some major discrepancies in GW scale.

As for the Tau though there are probably some cadres that maneuver on their own at around 50-100 Tau. These groups are the raiders/saboteurs that bust up and send the enemy into disaray to ease the way for the main Tau forces.

Still the Tau operations have to be large. The Tau dont do protracted fights and though a single cadre could probably do a good bit it would take too long. Overwhelming force to win fast and lessen the total cassualties.

Thats just how I see the numbers.
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Old 09 Sep 2005, 10:26   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
40K scale is appalling in terms of numbers. In World War II, Germany suffered five million (5,000,000) military losses... almost ten times the number of Imperial troops involved in the Eye of Terror campaign.

This leads us to two conclusions: that planets are much less populated in the 41st millennium, or GW are total bloody morons. I'm assuming on the latter. Thus I wish to give some more realistic scales for some of our less-understood armies:

Tau
A Tau Cadre consists of 100 firewarriors, plus drones, vehicles and crews.

Cadres are formed into contingents of 6-12 Cadres, commanded by an experienced Shas'El.

These number-cadres are formed into larger still formations, consisting of three to five number cadres (between 18 and 60 Cadres... 1,800 to 6,000 Tau), usually led by a Shas'O. These are referred to as Great Cadres.


Realistically, Tau could not operate on smaller sizes than this. 6,000 Firewarriors would be the absolute minimum to Garrison a small outpost, whereas larger settlements would have closer to 600,000 Firewarriors or more.

Imperial Guard:
Each Guard regiment is 2-8,000 strong. This much we know, and 8-16,000 seems to be about right for an isolated Garrison (plus supporting units, obviously).

Where scale goes haywire is large scale offensives. EoT had a pittance in terms of manpower; Cadia alone should have provided at least 50 million Guardsmen, same with Armageddon (average hive world population in excess of 500 billion, yet Armageddon only raised 160 Regiments to defend its world... at most, 1.28 million troops; 0.000256% of the planet's population. With Armageddon, the Guard numbers raised there alone should have been at least 10% of the population; 50 billion Guardsmen.

So as a guideline, whenever the fluff mentions a campaign, check the scale. Damocles would have been nothing more than a scouting offensive, expecting nothing more than primitives, or Ork-level warband forces.
There are some casualties of WWII listed here.

According to that site, germans lost about 3.5 million soldiers in WWII. However, this number is quite high, if compared to losses of other countries. (Soviet Union had more casualties, 12 million soldiers, Japan has about 2 million. Then it drops around 500 000 for US and lower of others ) I do not know WWII well enough to know what caused so high military casualties. Is it the fact that Germany was fighting throughout the war, or are there included in those numbers any possibly armed civilians, who fought at the end of the war and were killed?

I think GW make up the numbers without reference. They might get small figures about right, but like wargamer said, are completely lost in large figures.

However, one thing to consider is that military compositions vary depending on cultures and areas. For Real life example, Finnish Battalion is a bit over 3000 men (canīt remember the correct amount anymore, but I think itīs 3316. If there are any Finnish members who do know it please correct me). I think Battalion is sort of the "building block" of FDF(Finnish Defence Force). In comparison in Russia the military movement made in Divisions, and again, if I remember correctly a Russian division is about 20000 men. These differences arise purely from the sizes of countries, and in that respect the size of their armies.

This doesnīt mean that Finnish canīt stop Russians. Larger units, just because of their sizes, are "clumsier", and have to operate in certain ways. The smaller the unit, the less predictable and "agile" it becomes. So while a single Finnish battalion will not stop a* Russian Division, it will be able to fight it. They can co-operate with other battalions, or can hit only parts of the division, not all of it.

This is quite clear in Iraq today. While the US forces are a lot bigger, they also have to operate certain way just to support their own weight(organize supply). This makes them vulnerable to smaller, worse equipped enemy.

If you compare the Tau Empire in size to Imperium, and in same way compare their armies, I donīt see it at all impossible that Tau military uses smaller "building blocks" for their operations. Specifically, since Tau operate a very mixed military, with (in fluff) heavy air support, infantry and armor working together. Added to this Drones and indirect fire (Seeker missiles) may make it possible for Tau to engage enemies without even being close (sensory towers from forgeworld seem to indicate they actually do this: I imagine Tau planets having Drone controlled Markerlight Towers, visible or hidden, spread around in the landscape with Seekers close by to be called on the target.) This might be the reason for their mobile way of war: They can pull it off, as théir units are so small.

But as said, what is wrong is the amount of soldiers available in big engagement: I think in some way GW doesnīt really work with that big numbers. I donīt have EOT codex at hand, but does it mention the amount of troops and the division of them in the campaign?

For Hive worlds creating armies, I assume itīs not so much of the manpower issue, as as equipping them. Giving them Lasguns (they are easy to manufacture, but even so 1 million lasguns is a lot of resources), armor (think about the work needed to create 1000000 flack vests and helmets), other equipment (Few sets of clothets, feeding utensils, holsters, weapon cleaning sets, Imperial versions of bible and all other everyday items soldiers need). Then itīs the matter of getting them where they need to be trained (transportation, housing, feeding) training them (housing, feeding, training equipment, training personnel), and shipping them (a regiment needs a transport to go off world. Transports usually travel in convoys, and need escorts.) While they wait for the concoy, they need to supply more food, They they are shipped to whatever planet they are bound, and at that point the arrangements are needed so someone knows they are coming, can supply them on spot, and tell them what they need to do. All this adds up to huge amount of work and resources.

Lasguns are cheap to manufacture, but they still use resources. They propably have steel parts, so someone needs to refine the steel. They need ore, so someone needs to mine it. Hive worlds propably have long since used their ore, so they need someone to transport the ore from elsewhere to them.* Lasguns propably also need electronic parts, that need copper, plastics, electronic components(that in turn have their own indregients), and lenses. All this means that behind that one lasgun is actually lot of work. This is why increasing military manufacturing is time consuming, and sluggish.

Have you ever imagined how much food/water a hive world needs? Any sort of blockade propably would destory the world in weeks with starvation, disease and rioting. Knowing how much trafic there already exist just to keep the world operating, finding ships to transport anything extra and factoring them into the schedules is difficult at best.

So while is seems like hive worlds are imperial strongholds, they arenīt that great. They need constant supply, tie up a lot of forces, and while they do have superior production, they need all resources from elsewhere.
Edit: No need for the big space
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Old 09 Sep 2005, 18:49   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

I should point out that Armageddon provides the weaponry for the entire subsector... in other worlds, the world is built to equip millions upon millions of Guardsmen. Combine that with Hive Gangs (who bring their own equipment), and supplying them shouldn't be hard... remember, Germany could supply over 3.5 million troops... so surely a world with 10,000x the population, and 200,000x the production capabilites, could cope...
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Old 10 Sep 2005, 10:37   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
I should point out that Armageddon provides the weaponry for the entire subsector... in other worlds, the world is built to equip millions upon millions of Guardsmen. Combine that with Hive Gangs (who bring their own equipment), and supplying them shouldn't be hard... remember, Germany could supply over 3.5 million troops... so surely a world with 10,000x the population, and 200,000x the production capabilites, could cope...
Germany could supply a lot of their troops however still relied on horses for a lot of the transport of equipment.
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Old 10 Sep 2005, 11:01   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Immaterial, motorvehicles were alot less common in the 40's. In the 42nd Millenium, they'll be widespread. Heck, today they are widespread!

I agree that the scales are messed up, but ah well. Nothing any of us can do about it.

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Old 13 Sep 2005, 06:50   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 40K scale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
I should point out that Armageddon provides the weaponry for the entire subsector... in other worlds, the world is built to equip millions upon millions of Guardsmen. Combine that with Hive Gangs (who bring their own equipment), and supplying them shouldn't be hard... remember, Germany could supply over 3.5 million troops... so surely a world with 10,000x the population, and 200,000x the production capabilities, could cope...
The world may well be designed to equip the whole subsector. But according to fluff, Imperial resources are normally stretched thin, with millions of worlds to defend. So I would assume that before EOT the planet was already running at full capacity, or close(If not then you have to wonder why would a hive world stand idle`when troops and equipment are needed elsewhere in the galaxy?). This means that when EOT started, and they suddenly needed a lot more troops on multiple planets, the planet couldnīt increase production so fast(or that much).

Hive Gangs might be usefull way to increase numbers fast, but they have two problems I can see:
1) Getting them. With the lawlessness in hive worlds, it takes some effort to get a gang on transport to fight a war. They would propably fight back. This would mean casualties to Arbites, who are needed anyway to keep the Hive running. And it might even become a full riot when Gangs see that they are being conscripted and loot, fight, shoot and run trying to avoid it.

2) Mixing them with normal troops. There might be problems with normal troops, that are accustomed to more disciplined military and Gangs who are used to not being bossed around. If you use too much Gangs, you have a anarchic uni that canīt operate, and might even rebel (itīs not like the Gangs are loyal soldiers, Iīd think they are more worried about their own life). If you have too many soldiers, you only end up having small troublemaker part in the unit, and donīt really boost the overall numbers too much.





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