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Anti power gaming armies?
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 03:21   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Anti power gaming armies?

I heard in the locked thread somehting along the lines of

"Min maxed lists get molested by swarm armies and. . ."

Anyway would someone elaborate on what principles in army building really undo the strentghs of typical min-max pging play?
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 03:54   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

"Min maxed lists get molested by swarm armies" is a common cant, but I'd say it's a rather misleading simplification. The most common min-max lists can deal with hordes - Iron Warrior armies packing 4 Ordnance, 6+ Obliterators, a Daemon Prince (and the obligatory 2 Marine squads), or Starcannon and Wraithlord heavy lists like this hideously evil Ulthwe list. Then there's the common Marine min-max of 6x 6 Marines with Lascannon and Plasma Gun, all with Razorbacks, plus Devastators with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers to kill swarms.

The kinds of hordes that will give problems to these lists are the ones at the very extreme of 'horde', though not necessarily cheesy. One shining example would be all-infantry Guard. A big footslogging Ork army can work wonders too.

Some min-max lists can also have real problems in certain missions. Lists with low numbers of foot models can find it hard to claim board sections or take objectives. Slow shooty min-max lists can have big problems with anything that makes them move a lot - bunker assaults, breakouts, etc. Min-max lists with minimal troops in Escalation games can really get it handed to them by more balanced lists, particularly if the balanced lists have most of their power in their troops, or are packing powerful fast units or powerful Deep Strikers that turn up early.
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 05:05   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

I can attest that min/maxed armies just can't handle the hordes, from a good 2 vs 2 game I had just today.

I myself, fielded the Lost and the Damned, just over 100 models, including 72 mutants and 16 marines, backed by some nasty leaders. My partner was a gaunt heavy tyranid force, with 4 monstrous creatures and a lictor. Together, we filled the entirety of a 12 inch deployment zone over 6 feet on our 4x6 table, with over 200 models combined. No tanks, and only about 3 or 4 guns total other than a stray bolter or death spitter.

Our opponents were pure marines, but not even min/maxed, but some squads were close to it and squads such as this typically lack the veterans with the power fists and all, so they're easy prey.

The mission was Gamma level, so victory points, but we had to try and control 3 loot counters. Needless to say, the gaunts were fast and bolted forward. The min/maxed squads just can't pack enough fire power to kill enough gaunts to stop them. While my slow damned just walked up and sat on the loot counters. Our leaders slapped around marines while our assault units kept his min/maxed squads busy in combat, and out of the shooting phase. By the end of the game, all the marine squads were non-scoring or destroyed, leaving 5 scoring units on our side, holding all 3 loot counters.

Min/Max cannot move and shoot typically, which is why they fail to be good at anything other than killing an opposing elite armies. Min/Max marine boys can Las/Plas it up and take on other marine armies with good results, but they just can't do anything against quantity armies. Shooting a lascannon and plasma into a squad of 6~7 point models with no save is pathetic. It's the bolters which are dangerous, and they lack them because they wasted 2 models on heavy/special weapons in their min/max squad leaving 4 bolters, which do the real killing in that kind of match. Needless to say, they lose quickly and fall to crushing number.

So to pull apart the mix/max army, I simply took more units than he did, and I have the ability to move and do things, while he has to sit tight and attempt to focus something he needs destroyed. He cannot do this, because min/max armies focus on the most powerful weapons (AP2 basically) and ordinance, but fail to have enough of the other weapons (which are the ones important when fighting horde armies). By the time they've inflicted 2/3rd casualty on a single squad of 24 mutants, of the 3 that I take, it's too late and my squad is in combat where my disgustingly good chaos champions go to work, protected almost indefinitely behind the mutant wounds. Min/Max armies like marines simply cannot deal with it. I also bring a lot of surprise units, ie: daemons and obliterators myself. I have a lot on the board already, and a fat squad of marines for infiltration as a decoy. Marine armies are always worried about the "scary models" and they use their super las/plas combos to rip into them, which I leave in cover where they last forever. This whole time, my horde of mutants take all the objectives and quarters.

Quite simply, min/max armies just cannot keep up with something fast and plentiful where it's ok to lose models. The strength of min/max is to get a bunch of heavy weapons which are great at destroying your super units. The trick is, leave the super units at home and just take a bunch of the cheap stuff. You'll win too easily and he'll be discouraged to keep trying his lame sit, point, shoot 12 lascannon and hope to kill something strategy.

Cheers!
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 05:34   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Sounds like extreme hordes to me! ;D Though I do still think a pair of min-maxed IWs could have given you two a run for your money. 8 ordnance pie plates, a thunderstorm of shots from 12+ Obliterators, plus shooting from whatever else was in support. Quite likely a pair of Daemon Princes to smash anything that gets too close. With good fire concentration and threat priority, I think min-maxed IW can have a healthy chance of staving off assault.
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We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me.

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

[i]All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

- A public service clarification by the Sri Syadasti School of Spiritual Wisdom
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 06:21   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
I heard in the locked thread somehting along the lines of

"Min maxed lists get molested by swarm armies and. . ."

Anyway would someone elaborate on what principles in army building really undo the strentghs of typical min-max pging play?
Well the greatest way to undermine a powergamer is to blatantly lie.

Tell your opponent you are bringing pure-infantry guard, then deploy an Armoured Company, and refuse to let him change the list. Another fun one is to claim you're bringing Marines, then use Orks. Doing this means your opponent will have written all the wrong weapons into his list, and will struggle to win (after all, Powergamers can't use tactics...). When they claim it's unfair, kindly point out that if their list was designed to take on all comers, they wouldn't have this problem.
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 07:16   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

I would love to see a min/maxed marine army going against a kroot merc army. I think there is one model with a 4+ save.
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 09:39   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
I heard in the locked thread somehting along the lines of

"Min maxed lists get molested by swarm armies and. . ."

Anyway would someone elaborate on what principles in army building really undo the strentghs of typical min-max pging play?
Well the greatest way to undermine a powergamer is to blatantly lie.

Tell your opponent you are bringing pure-infantry guard, then deploy an Armoured Company, and refuse to let him change the list. Another fun one is to claim you're bringing Marines, then use Orks. Doing this means your opponent will have written all the wrong weapons into his list, and will struggle to win (after all, Powergamers can't use tactics...). When they claim it's unfair, kindly point out that if their list was designed to take on all comers, they wouldn't have this problem.
Awesome ideas there WG, evil as always. But is it evil if they deserve it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Area
or Starcannon and Wraithlord heavy lists like this hideously evil Ulthwe list.
That force has two huge disadvantages.
- Lack of manouverability
- Lack of ranged firepower
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 11:29   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Area
Sounds like extreme hordes to me! ;D Though I do still think a pair of min-maxed IWs could have given you two a run for your money. 8 ordnance pie plates, a thunderstorm of shots from 12+ Obliterators, plus shooting from whatever else was in support. Quite likely a pair of Daemon Princes to smash anything that gets too close. With good fire concentration and threat priority, I think min-maxed IW can have a healthy chance of staving off assault.
Very true. 8 Ordinance plates will devastate anything on the ground. And ~18 Obliterators would definitely supply plenty of everything else needed. It's just one of those "mega powers" in the game that can be fielded in the same army, oddly enough. Not everyone has Obliterators, quite simply because why would everyone have T5 terminators with multiple wounds who have every heavy weapon imaginable (almost anyways).

But that would be very costly, 4 ordinance plates from defilers/vindicators/basilisk would generally run near 600 points per army, so that's 1200 points for two, and the Obliterators blow that out of the water with another 630 points per list, for another 1260 points for the two, making for 2460 points out of the possible 3000 (we plated 1500 points each), leaving only 500 points between them for troops, etc. So that particular setup could happen in larger games, but even in smaller games, something similar can definitely be done.

For these boys - You fight cheese with cheese. Twin Siren's of Slaneesh and a bunch of hiding troops ;D And two big nasty Hive Tyrants with more hiding troops or crazy ones that run off to their death.

Sadly though, in a team game, there just isn't much you can do against two very long beards that are packing just ordinance and obliterators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Well the greatest way to undermine a powergamer is to blatantly lie.

Tell your opponent you are bringing pure-infantry guard, then deploy an Armoured Company, and refuse to let him change the list. Another fun one is to claim you're bringing Marines, then use Orks. Doing this means your opponent will have written all the wrong weapons into his list, and will struggle to win (after all, Powergamers can't use tactics...). When they claim it's unfair, kindly point out that if their list was designed to take on all comers, they wouldn't have this problem.
Absolutely. Why not right? He's there to destroy you because he thinks he knows what you're fielding. If you throw him something else, it's at least more interesting for the two as you can make him sweat a little bit.

Cheers!
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 11:51   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Area
Sadly though, in a team game, there just isn't much you can do against two very long beards that are packing just ordinance and obliterators
Two words...loaded dice

but seriously i had this one guy say my Mech Tau army was cheesy when I beat his armoured company. I hardly used my hammerheads I deepstriked my fusion blasting crisus suits and the rest was history.

Fixed -H
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Old 04 Aug 2005, 13:19   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Anti power gaming armies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Well the greatest way to undermine a powergamer is to blatantly lie.

Tell your opponent you are bringing pure-infantry guard, then deploy an Armoured Company, and refuse to let him change the list. Another fun one is to claim you're bringing Marines, then use Orks. Doing this means your opponent will have written all the wrong weapons into his list, and will struggle to win (after all, Powergamers can't use tactics...). When they claim it's unfair, kindly point out that if their list was designed to take on all comers, they wouldn't have this problem.
You do realize that doing what you advise would be cheating, don't you?

Your opponants are allowed to make their list after knowing what army list you play, though they are not allowed to know what units you have chosen for your list.* Lying to your opponant about what army list you are bringing is cheating, plain and simple.

Players do not have to design their lists to 'take on all comers.'* That is not part of the game, no matter how much some players may wish it to be so. If players wish to intentionally handicap themselves and take a weaker list, that is their privilage, but someone who would try to force everybody else to play that way even when they don't have to is nothing less then bad sportsmanship.

Some players may not like powergamers, but being a cheater is far far worse.* Cheating will get you thrown out of the store, and kicked out of a tournament.

I think anyone who cheated by lying to their opponant about what race they are using will soon find themselves with no one to play against, and rightly so.* There's no room at the table for cheats.* They should get out of the hobby and make room for real players.
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