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Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 09:13   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Hey guys...
I was playing a 2000pts game against a guy on vassal, and it got to the point where i realised this guy was being REALLY anal about the rules... So much so that it was almost as if he was cheating... But anyway, it came to my turn and i wanted to shoot the assault cannon on the Landraider crusader, he argued that it could not see his killa kanz because it has a 45 degree arc of sight because it is hull mounted... We both looked at the rule book and sure enough. Hull Mounted weapons have a 45 arc of sight... But we both disagreed on whether the assault cannons are hull mounted, i argued not.

What do you think?
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 09:24   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

They are not hull-mounted. The frontal weapons of Land Raiders are mounted in embedded turrets, meaning their lines of sight and fire are limited only by their turning circle.

The cupola-mounted weapons should also class as turret mounted.
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 09:31   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Great... That is what I was arguing... He wasn't having any of it, so i walked away.
Cheers
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 15:30   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

First and foremost check your codex. Depending on what codex you are using they are indeed described as hull mounted.

I checked two of my codexes (that were nearby) and one says hull mounted (Templar) and the other (SW) does not say anything at all beyond twin-linked heavy bolters.

That said, the consensus in my area and the tournies I have been to are that it is a hull mounted weapon. This is how it was described in 4th edition codexes and without any clarification I think most people just keep playing that way.

If you have a group that you regularly play with and cannot decide a good compromise may be to use a 90 arc of fire.
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 18:39   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Memory serves that assault cannon is a 360 rotation. But it isn't a hull mounted weapon. The only thing I know in any space marine codexs that's hull mounted is on the vindicator and that weapon is very specifically designated as "Hull Mounted Demolisher Cannon"

If the assault cannon simply says "Twin-Linked Assault Cannon" it's irrelevant if it looks hull mounted it will always have a 90 degree firing arc at least. But most cupola weapons are 360, like the additional storm bolter on tanks, the turret, and the rhinos storm bolter.
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 18:56   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

I think your answer can be found in the general FAQ, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Q. On page 59, the rules for the arc of fire of
pintle-mounted (or bolt-on) weapons address
those mounted on turrets and those mounted
directly on the hull. But what about those
mounted on smaller structures (like a Rhino’s
cupola) that look like they can rotate 360º, even
though they aren’t proper turrets?


A. Remember that the rule is: if it looks like you
can point the gun at it, then you can, even if it’s
glued in place’.
The rest is just a set of guidelines
about the arcs of fire of weapons glued in place,
and does not cover all possible weapons
mounting and vehicles. If the structure the gun is
pintle-mounted on is obviously capable of
rotating 360º, like in the case of a Rhino’s cupola,
then it should be treated as having a 360º arc of
fire. However, if you mount the same storm
bolter on a Razorback, even though it still can
rotate 360º, it won’t obviously be able to fire
through the Razorback’s main turret, and so it
will have a ‘blind spot’. In the same way, the
shuriken catapult mounted under the hull of a
Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can rotate
360º, but it does not look like it can be fired
through the main hull right behind it, so we
normally play that it can be fired roughly in the
180º to the vehicle’s front, which seems like an
acceptable compromise.
This is also clearly covered in the rulebook. The guidelines for hull mounted, turret mounted, and so on apply only to provide an abstraction for when it is unclear how the weapon should rotate, often due to its being glued in place.
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Old 26 Jun 2010, 23:27   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

OK, got a chance to dig into some more rules and codexes. Here is some information.

The Templar codex (pg 42) lists the twin-linked HB & the T-L Asscannons as hull mounted. Per pg 59 of the main rulebook a hull mounted wapon has a 45 degree firing arc to the front. This is pretty darn clear.

The newer marine codexes do not say if it is hull mounted or turret mounted.

So I am looking at my Land Raider and I did not glue the HBs down. It is pretty clear to me that it is designed to rotate. It is even the same turret as the razorback as far as I can tell.

So then we refer to pg 59 of the BRB and see that it tells us what to do with a turret.

"Turret-mounted weapons can usually turn 360...unless the design of the model prevents this."

So playing with my land raider I notice that the HBs cannot turn all the way around. So obviously we don't have a full 360 because the hull blocks the side and back. But it can definately turn more than the 45 degrees of a hull mounted weapon. Using a T-square it can rotate over 90, but the sides of the LR start to get in the way. I guess it has about 110-120 degree arc of fire depending on the size of the target it is shooting at. Also due to the shape of the hull the arc is not equal left and right. The turret can traverse farther to the right than to the left.

My LRC has the Asscannons glued into place. But it has longer barrels so looks like it would not be able to rotate quite as far due to the hull of the tank. Probably still should be at least 90-100 degrees, though.


In conclusion, the Templar LR and LRC have a 45 degree arc of fire. All the newer marine codexes have turrets and hence a wider firing arc off 100-120 degrees depending on weapon and size of target. If you have glued your turret into place it is probably easiest just to call it a 90 degree arc of fire towards the front and call it good. And if you have a model that is right on the line and too close to call roll it off. Or next time just point it straighter at the bad guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HijiriOni
Memory serves that assault cannon is a 360 rotation. But it isn't a hull mounted weapon. The only thing I know in any space marine codexs that's hull mounted is on the vindicator and that weapon is very specifically designated as "Hull Mounted Demolisher Cannon"

If the assault cannon simply says "Twin-Linked Assault Cannon" it's irrelevant if it looks hull mounted it will always have a 90 degree firing arc at least. But most cupola weapons are 360, like the additional storm bolter on tanks, the turret, and the rhinos storm bolter.
This is just simply wrong in pretty much every way you can imagine.
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Old 27 Jun 2010, 11:07   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Accept that CM Seth just posted that it was right.

Course it's very hard to apply the "If it looks like it can rotate it can rule" in vassal. Which is where he was playing originally.

The vindicator is the best example because it's weapon can't turn at all, only move up and down. So if you aren't facing the right direction to shoot your target straight on you need to rely on that 45 degree rule. Be you immobilized or you didn't pivot correctly.

The rule is really only in place for bits that are glued in place or bits that don't move. Anything else follows the "If it can, it can" rule.
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Old 27 Jun 2010, 12:22   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by HijiriOni
Accept that CM Seth just posted that it was right.
Not necessarily. I said that if it can point there and see there, it can shoot there. The Assault Cannon on a Land Raider can most definitely not turn all the way around based on its position on the hull. You're going to end with a limited arc of fire. Certainly more than 45 degrees, or even 90, but 360 is impossible.
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Old 27 Jun 2010, 14:32   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Hull mounted or not hull mounted?? That is the Question

Ok thats brilliant... I would have accepted a 90 degree arc... But 45! Thats just screams of rules lawyer...
Bad of me i know, but i think what i may have said might have ruined international relations between the UK and Russia. :-X
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