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The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 07:15   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

A dark eldar ravager (armed with dark lance, 2 disintegrators and a horrorfex) declares it will fire the 2 disintegrators and the horrorfex at a squad of 10 tightly-knit space marines. The horrorfex hits and the marines fail their pinning test (with the -4 modifier hurting badly) but then the marine player claims he now gets a 6+ cover save from the 6 AP3 shots from the other ravager weapons. Does he?

Argument 1 – no. the weapons on a vehicle fire simultaneously and therefore they are hit as they go to ground, not after.

Argument 2 – but what if they go to ground “voluntarily”? according to the rulebook you can go to ground after everything but armour saves is done, meaning after the horrorfex is hit and the disintegrator shots have hit and wounded.

Argument 3 – Wouldn’t the horrorfex “forced” to go to ground override the voluntary (such as when involuntary disembarking on a vehicle overrides voluntary)

Argument 4 – Even so, they would have gone to ground and get the cover save

Argument 5 – But the horrorfex and disintegrators fire simultaneously.

Argument 6 – Regardless, they may go to ground anyway because no saves have been rolled.

The thing is, the rulebook states that after all to hit and wound rolls have been made, but before any saves are made, a unit may elect to go to ground. Unfortunately, the horrorfex does not state whether it is resolved before or after armour saves are taken from the other weapon(s) the target fires. This means your opponent can fail the test, then choose to go to ground voluntarily “before” the weapons actually hit them claiming a 6+ cover save.

When this happened today in a game, I let it slide – hey it was marines with a 6+ save that was awesome enough. If for some reason they were eldar pathfinders (4+ cover save in the open as oppose to nothing) then I would have been annoyed – so I would love this question to be answered.

And I know – the morale of the story is “Never take horrorfex’s on a ravager (or terrorfex’s on syrabites) :P

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 07:58   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

The answer is actually quite simple.

Did they go to ground before you rolled wounds? If the answer is no then they cannot claim the cover save from any weapons fired from the squad that forced them to go to ground as they we're standing during that shooting phase and all shooting is done simultaneously.

It's the same rule for a squad of space marine scouts. If I we're to shoot at someone and cause 2 rending shots as well as 3 wounding shots and they fail 2 armor saves against those then fail their leadership they can't claim cover now against those 2 rending shots because the wounds we're allready distributed and they didn't have the 6+ cover save when they were distributed. However should something else shoot them now they would have it.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 08:15   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

Well the horrorfex causes a pinning test on any unit it hits (with modifiers for various things - mostly negative modifiers too)

Therefore they went to ground because of the horrorfex anyway - Meaning they get the 6+ save right?

That's the thing. The horrorfex doesnt state when it pins the target. if it does pin the target then the opponent can say "i go to ground voluntarily" and get a 6+ cover save from the ravagers shots, because they took the pinning test before he rolled any saves from the disintegrators...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
Want to play Robot Wars using 40k Concepts? PM me for details on how you can get your FREE copy of the rules.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 08:31   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

They can claim voluntary like I said "before wounds" if it causes a pinning test then I'm gonna say no because they have to take the pinning test as well as any shots fired.

I'd have to read it's exact wording though. Does it have to cause wounds or does it simply force pinning the moment it's pointed at something?

Of course going to ground voluntarily is almost always a bad idea, some exceptions apply, but it pretty much means that unit can't move and counts as having moved in it's next phase. I don't remember if it prevents assaulting but it flat bones devastator squads and messes up melee only units like TH/SS termies.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 08:50   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

There are three ways to look at this, and in my interpretation all of those ways lead to the fact that he CANNOT voluntarily Go To Ground at that point.

The first method of looking at it, which is the least strong in my opinion, is that despite the fact that the Horrorfex says "don't roll to wound or save" (Codex: Dark Eldar Revised, page 15, under Terrorfex), there is still a "to wound" step and a "save" step. You may only go to ground voluntarily "after the enemy has rolled to hit and wound, but before you take any saves" (Rulebook, page 24). Ergo, you need to declare you are voluntarily going to ground BEFORE the "save" step, even though you do not do anything in that step before moving on to take a Pinning test. Therefore, since he did not declare that he was going to ground at the appropriate time he does not gain the benefit. The reason I consider this the weakest of the arguments is because it could be argued that there is no "to wound" step or "save" step with regard to the Horrorfex.

The second method of looking at it is through the Pinning characteristic (Rulebook, page 31). Pinning specifically states that "going to ground does not protect it against the fire of the pinning weapon that caused the test (or indeed of any weapon fired by the same unit that phase) - it's too late!" By the part of the quote in parentheses, then they do not gain the go to ground bonus cover save against the other shots of the same unit. I consider this the middle of the arguments because it could be argued that a Horrorfex is not a weapon with the Pinning characteristic; it simple causes a Leadership test that, if failed, leads to them going to ground. Sadly, due to the age of the codex, there's not a lot you can really do about that.

The final method is to do all of your fire in the reverse order, rolling for your Disintegrators to hit and to wound first and your Horrorfex last. After you have rolled to hit and wound with your Dinintegrators, roll to hit with the Horrofex. At that point, ask your opponent if he wishes to go to ground. At that point, regardless of whether he chooses to do so or not, ask him to make his saves and then the Leadership test for pinning. This is simply an inverse of what you did; if your opponent is intent on taking advantage of the fact that despite fire from a single unit being simultaneous, he chose to roll for the Horrorfex first and then making a conscious decision to consider that a prior effect, then reverse the situation on him.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 16:12   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by HijiriOni
Did they go to ground before you rolled wounds? If the answer is no then they cannot claim the cover save from any weapons fired from the squad that forced them to go to ground as they we're standing during that shooting phase and all shooting is done simultaneously.
Incorrect. You may go to ground after wounds, but before save are rolled. Please re read pg 24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
The final method is to do all of your fire in the reverse order, rolling for your Disintegrators to hit and to wound first and your Horrorfex last. After you have rolled to hit and wound with your Dinintegrators, ask your opponent if he wishes to go to ground. If he declines, then roll to hit with the Horrofex and then ask him to make his saves and Leadership test for pinning. This is simply an inverse of what you did; if your opponent is intent on taking advantage of the fact that despite fire from a single unit being simultaneous, he chose to roll for the Horrorfex first and then making a conscious decision to consider that a prior effect, then reverse the situation on him. If you do this then make sure you roll to hit with the Horrorfex before he removes casualties from the Disintegrators, since all fire is simultaneous.
This is simply bad advice and against the rules. You roll to hit with all shots before rolling to wound. And even if you did roll to hit and wound with the disintigrators he can still wait for the horrorfex shot before he goes to ground. Also telling someone to use bad sportsmenship to counter perceived bad sportsmanship is not generally a good idea.


@ the OP: Unfortunately I cannot locate my DE codex. I believe the rules are something like any unit hit by a horrorfex make a leadership test (with a penalty) or become pinned. If this is correct then he can roll his leadership as soon as he is hit. Since at that point you should've only rolled to hit and not wound then his models have indeed gone to ground before he makes his armor saves.

So if I remember my Horrorfex rules correctly shooting would go something like this:

Roll to hit
Roll leadership for Horrorfex
Roll to wound
Opponent may choose to go to ground if they have not already
Roll saves (if gone to ground voluntarily or forced then you get a cover save of 6+)
Remove dead guys
Make leadership check for 25% casualties (if needed)

If I am incorrect in the Horrorfex rules then someone please let me know what they say.

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Old 07 Jun 2010, 16:29   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordekiem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
The final method is to do all of your fire in the reverse order, rolling for your Disintegrators to hit and to wound first and your Horrorfex last. After you have rolled to hit and wound with your Dinintegrators, ask your opponent if he wishes to go to ground. If he declines, then roll to hit with the Horrofex and then ask him to make his saves and Leadership test for pinning. This is simply an inverse of what you did; if your opponent is intent on taking advantage of the fact that despite fire from a single unit being simultaneous, he chose to roll for the Horrorfex first and then making a conscious decision to consider that a prior effect, then reverse the situation on him. If you do this then make sure you roll to hit with the Horrorfex before he removes casualties from the Disintegrators, since all fire is simultaneous.
This is simply bad advice and against the rules. You roll to hit with all shots before rolling to wound. And even if you did roll to hit and wound with the disintigrators he can still wait for the horrorfex shot before he goes to ground. Also telling someone to use bad sportsmenship to counter perceived bad sportsmanship is not generally a good idea.
Whilst I will admit there is a little bit of naughtiness there, I fail to see how it is bad advice. My general experience is that the majority of gamers will resolve each individual weapon's shots, at least up to a certain point (usually wound allocation), individually before moving onto the next weapon. Now, his opponent is taking advantage of this because he erroneously resolved the Horrorfex fully before finishing the rest of his shooting with that unit. But when you choose to partially resolve your shooting in that manner, you have complete choice over which order to do so in, with the assumption that all firing is simultaneous in the end. Okay, so you probably shouldn't ask "do you want to go to ground?" before you even roll to hit with the Horrorfex, but there is nothing stopping you from firing your Disintegrators "first" and your Horrorfex "second". In fact, with an opponent who seems willing to bend the rules in his favour, such a strategy may well be necessary to avoid these arguments in the future.

In the case of the naughtiness, I'll go back and amend the post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordekiem
@ the OP: Unfortunately I cannot locate my DE codex. I believe the rules are something like any unit hit by a horrorfex make a leadership test (with a penalty) or become pinned. If this is correct then he can roll his leadership as soon as he is hit. Since at that point you should've only rolled to hit and not wound then his models have indeed gone to ground before he makes his armor saves.

So if I remember my Horrorfex rules correctly shooting would go something like this:

Roll to hit
Roll leadership for Horrorfex
Roll to wound
Opponent may choose to go to ground if they have not already
Roll saves (if gone to ground voluntarily or forced then you get a cover save of 6+)
Remove dead guys
Make leadership check for 25% casualties (if needed)

If I am incorrect in the Horrorfex rules then someone please let me know what they say.

The issue here is, as I did point out in my initial post, that whilst the Terrorfex (from which the Horrorfex gains its rules) states that you "don't roll to wound or save", it does not preclude the fact that there is still, technically, a "to wound" stage and a "saving throw" stage. Because the Terrorfex does not specify when you take the Leadership test, you cannot necessarily use that argument.

My interpretation is that there is still a "to wound" and a "saving throw" stage, even though the Horrorfex itself does not require you to do anything for it in either, and therefore you should choose to go to ground before you take the Horrorfex Leadership test. However, there is no indicator when you should take it and thus my argument is not RAW watertight. Hence my suggestion of a method that could potentially avoid all of that, which you seem to have labelled as 'bad advice' though I do take a little umbrage at that.
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[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 19:31   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

Don't have my ancient codex with me. That said, it seems to me if you "go to ground" you "go to ground" whether it's involuntary or not. Say he passes the horrorfex test, he still has the option to go to ground against the disintigrator hits. If he fails the horrorfex test, he doesn't have a choice: he's gone to ground and gets the cover save. Personally I'd rather he took the h-fex test first as there's a better chance of him failing with more models under the template. After all, the idea behind the horrorfex is to keep the enemy in place and not shooting.
As to the pathfinders, how often do you see them not in cover already?
Again, if they're sucking dirt, they aren't shooting.
Oh, and Mord: if you're pinned you don't take morale checks for casualties. Sometimes it's a good thing to be pinned!
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 22:24   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

But this is the question - the horrorfex makes them go to ground...do the marines get the cover save from the other weapons of the ravager?

If they volunterily went to ground they would, but the horrorfex used involuntary. That said if the horrorfex forced them to ground before they could voluntarily do it then they are at the ground even sooner so they should get their cover save right? But all weapons fire simulteneously. :-\

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
Want to play Robot Wars using 40k Concepts? PM me for details on how you can get your FREE copy of the rules.
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 23:30   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Million Dollar Question - The timing of Going to Ground

Which is exactly what I said earlier. They don't get their cover saves because the horrorfex forced them to ground at the same time the other weapons hit them, they were not "Gone to Ground" allready.
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