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A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?
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Old 29 May 2010, 05:30   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

This is why I hate playing at differant places. Anyway I got into a long stupid argument about this.

The question is do vehicles get cover saves if I shot through area terrain between two points?

Where I play at the answer is yes and here is why.

I think they refer to pg. 22 and state that vehicles get a cover if a unit fires though area terrain.

When I show them the 50% rule. They define intervening terrain as area terrain so if a vehicle is 50% or more in terrain or by cover than it gets a cover save.

My argument since true line of sight takes precedent that the vehicle only gets 50% if 50% or more is blocked by the models point of view.

So I need some clarification so I can finally stop arguing about this issue. It's insane cause I argue this all the time. It's to a point where I'll start putting camo cloaks on my tanks due to the ease of area terrain.

So I need a defintion of intervening terrain. I told him shoe me that it refers to area terrain and stop making up rules. So right now we're at a impass and showing the 50% isn't enough. I'll review the rules tonight as well.

Also I'm gonna relook at intervening models and argue that vehicles get cover saves from them as well since the vehicle is behind 50% or more behind a squad.
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Old 29 May 2010, 07:13   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

The big book states that it can only ever claim a save if the model is visibly covered by more then 50%. Area terrain works for troops because it's assumed that small agile people are able to duck behind trees, rocks, etc. Whilst a vehicle is not capable of ducking or pressing itself up against those kind of things.

Doesn't matter if your shooting through or into area terrain with a vehicle as your target, if it's mostly visible it doesn't get a save.
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Old 29 May 2010, 11:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HijiriOni
The big book states that it can only ever claim a save if the model is visibly covered by more then 50%. Area terrain works for troops because it's assumed that small agile people are able to duck behind trees, rocks, etc. Whilst a vehicle is not capable of ducking or pressing itself up against those kind of things.

Doesn't matter if your shooting through or into area terrain with a vehicle as your target, if it's mostly visible it doesn't get a save.
The whole store clasifies the rule as intervening terrain. Which means for them area terrain. Even vehicles plop interrian get cover saves. What you said is what I said.

They're looking do a defenition of intervening terrain.
IMO they making crap up that makes the game longer and only benefit armies like myself that runs 13 vehicles.
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Old 29 May 2010, 12:21   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

The rulebook is very clear that vehicles and Monstrous Creatures must be actually 50% obscured. No area terrain abstraction, as with infantry, is used. 50% of the model must be literally and truly blocked by terrain.
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Old 29 May 2010, 12:29   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapter Master Seth
The rulebook is very clear that vehicles and Monstrous Creatures must be actually 50% obscured. No area terrain abstraction, as with infantry, is used. 50% of the model must be literally and truly blocked by terrain.
You think that it does. I've spent an hour arguing the same stuff. It's the way they defining intervening terrain, how they reading shooting between two points.

The rationale is the statement at the bottom wouldn't have been mentioned if area terrain isn't the case. They argue that a model in area terrain follows the 50% rule.

The 50% rule states intervening models and terrain.

They argue intervening terrain is area terrain which makes no sense how they came up with that.
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Old 29 May 2010, 12:40   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

I must say, as usual the vehicle section of the rulebook is weak and not very well worded. I know for a fact that the intention is that a vehicle and an MC must be actually obscured. Otherwise, why would their terrain rules differ from infantry?
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Old 29 May 2010, 12:54   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapter Master Seth
I must say, as usual the vehicle section of the rulebook is weak and not very well worded. I know for a fact that the intention is that a vehicle and an MC must be actually obscured. Otherwise, why would their terrain rules differ from infantry?
That's the point I tried to make as well. They say the troop one refers to models so tanks are included. The tank rules compliment the rules on page 22. I even showed the example if intervening terrain with the sample they show in the book. Even went over the true line of sight on page 16 or 18. The argument comes from being in the terrain and hiding behind a 2 trees. That's why I'll start fielding tank squads with cammo netting when I go over there. With that definition I could run 3 armoured sentinels in a line giving cover saves to my tanks that covers 18" easy.
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Old 29 May 2010, 13:17   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

There is a clause that says "If you agree on it then it passes pregame" because a vehicle in area terrain might not fit properly if it's a Heavy Forest and a dense forest might actually provide cover. But that's the only circumstance where the 50% rule would be ignored because you agreed on it ahead of time.

Of course the rule should make sense, if you have dense grass that grants a 5+ cover save for your troops it can't possibly be tall and think enough to cover a tank even if it isn't properly represented.
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Old 29 May 2010, 13:21   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HijiriOni
There is a clause that says "If you agree on it then it passes pregame" because a vehicle in area terrain might not fit properly if it's a Heavy Forest and a dense forest might actually provide cover. But that's the only circumstance where the 50% rule would be ignored because you agreed on it ahead of time.

Of course the rule should make sense, if you have dense grass that grants a 5+ cover save for your troops it can't possibly be tall and think enough to cover a tank even if it isn't properly represented.
Line of sight would take over. It states in line of sight that if you can see over the obstruction you get no cover. So if the two points is an inch tall for example you will get no cover.
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Old 29 May 2010, 13:29   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves?

You understand the rules, it just sounds like the people you play against are misreading something enough to get an advantage.

I've had the "We didn't discuss that pregame" crap pulled on me, because I came from the older edition mentality of "A Circular block with 1-3 trees on it means that whole block is a forest" whereas 5th edition makes you declare it as area terrain and agree on it's save and agree on whether or not it should be thick enough to block LoS to MCs and tanks, if you fail to discuss it pregame then it only counts for what it can block on it's own in 5th.

Your best option is to pool all the terrain you plan to use before setting it up and then agree on what does what before setting any up this means your opponents will be gambling which pieces will help them most so they are alot more likely to be fair on this debate.
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