Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Reserving: is it an issue.?
Reply
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:06   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 208
Default Reserving: is it an issue.?

1st WARNING : This thread is to discuss the ability in 5th to reserve your whole army anytime and its effects on the meta, armies and players. Were not here to to discuss my example list. Were not here to talk about drop pods requiring skill or the viablity of that army.

2nd WARNING : I don't play tournaments much but sometimes i get into thinking in a competitive mindset and I think this is where this argument comes from.

So one of the issues Ive had with this edition is the ability to always reserve. I gave the issue more thought when I was writing up a list for a campaign my group is going to be starting soon which is

Kantor
Librarian

5 Scouts- Power weapon, melta bomb
5 Scouts- Power weapon, melta bomb
5 Scouts-Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloak-
5 Scouts-Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloak

Land Speeder Storm-Heavy Flamer
Land Speeder Storm-Heavy Flamer
6 Scout Bikes-Locator Beacon, Powerfist

9 SternGuard-3 Combi Meltas
Drop Pod
9 SternGuard-3 Combi Meltas
Drop Pod
9 SternGuard-2 Heavy Flamers
Drop Pod

This was a crimson fist list I wrote up. Then I thought what if the opponent reserves? My two drop pods fall in to nothing and are stranded in the open and my storms with scouts are going to have to turbo boost back and forth or hide in cover. My opponents said they wouldn't reserve against me but I also didn't want them to do that as it would be a challenge for me.

This is just one list, there seems there are quite a few list that can be abused/abuse this.

Drop Pods- I didn't play in 4th edition but Ive heard that the old drop pods were brutal. When 5th came out I was extremely excited by the ability to do a drop pod army as Ive read about them since 3rd edition. I'm sure some will argue reserving is a tactic against this army and I understand that but it neuters it so hard. Plus its only half the pods against your whole army.The only ones that seem to work are dark angels and black Templar or spore pod armies as they use the 4th edition deployment of pods. Ive seen opponents reserve even when you only have 3 pods! Drop pod list are no longer fun to me because of this.

Mech- Most of us know this edition is mech, that's pretty much what happens every edition no surprise. . Ive got a BA mech list I'm going to try and when I go to the 3 round tournament I will probably reserve every game. Mech armies can reserve themselves and then some armies (eldar, tau, marines w/ tigerius, guard w/ astropath) can reliable get a portion of their armies on the table and since there mech have speed to get in the battle quickly.

Many will argue that there is a chance of them piece mealing on and that's true but it seems the positive of reserving far outweighs the negative.

I known Ive seen other people on this forum and others argue how it seems a lot of people are just reserving. People are only playing 4 turn games. I think what was once seen as great idea is rearing its ugly head as a not so great idea.

So I guess the point of this long post was to offer my view point and ask the people of TO what are the thoughts on the issue.
Valten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:10   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Behind you
Posts: 19,399
Send a message via MSN to ForbiddenKnowledge
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

We have a guy at our club who plays total air cav guard.

If he doesn't get hte first turn/first deploy, he just reserves everything so they don't get shot at.


Only way around it is to steal initiative.


So yeah, I think there is an issue with reserving things on a whim.
__________________
[quote]Thou shalt not crave thy neighbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim.
Rafe is damn sexy once he gets into his night attire.
ForbiddenKnowledge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:18   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ames, Iowa
Posts: 743
Send a message via MSN to Warpspiderman
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

I'm just now starting a Space Marine army, centered around drop pods w/ Sternguard and Pedro but I have a rhino, pred, and assault marines as well. I assume your plan is such that if they go into reserves, you line up all of your scouts on their line w/ infiltrate and get an easy win. While this seems effective, I abandoned the idea pretty fast for a couple of reason.

It might work a couple of times, but people are going to get wise. All they have to do is start one or two units on the field and put everything else into reserves. You're obviously going to drop down by their units, so they basically get to pick where you DS. Never play on your opponent's terms.

Your list is good, but there's little variation. Units of 5 scouts are OK, but fielding that many is a mistake IMHO. Also, Sternguard die just as easily as normal marines. Maybe just go one Storm w/ scouts and one squad of snipers, and exchange a couple of Sternguard for normal tac squads? Just ideas.

Yeah, the whole reserves thing is useful against firepower and drop pod armies. It's a great tactic, unfortunately. I don't encounter this a lot of my LGS, even in tournaments, but from what I understand it's quite widespread. I can't really offer a solution, but your army should make your opponent want to deploy on the field. Your list is a fantastic job at doing that, but an enormous cost in variation. It looks like it could do well, I'd be curious to see how it performs.
__________________
If you're reading this then you've won the game. Congratulations, you're free!
Warpspiderman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:22   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 208
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpspiderman
I'm just now starting a Space Marine army, centered around drop pods w/ Sternguard and Pedro but I have a rhino, pred, and assault marines as well. I assume your plan is such that if they go into reserves, you line up all of your scouts on their line w/ infiltrate and get an easy win. While this seems effective, I abandoned the idea pretty fast for a couple of reason.

It might work a couple of times, but people are going to get wise. All they have to do is start one or two units on the field and put everything else into reserves. You're obviously going to drop down by their units, so they basically get to pick where you DS. Never play on your opponent's terms.

Your list is good, but there's little variation. Units of 5 scouts are OK, but fielding that many is a mistake IMHO. Also, Sternguard die just as easily as normal marines. Maybe just go one Storm w/ scouts and one squad of snipers, and exchange a couple of Sternguard for normal tac squads? Just ideas.

Yeah, the whole reserves thing is useful against firepower and drop pod armies. It's a great tactic, unfortunately. I don't encounter this a lot of my LGS, even in tournaments, but from what I understand it's quite widespread. I can't really offer a solution, but your army should make your opponent want to deploy on the field. Your list is a fantastic job at doing that, but an enormous cost in variation. It looks like it could do well, I'd be curious to see how it performs.

Thanks fo the response but the list was just an example (im not running that list anyway). I just used it as an example of how an army can get screwed so hard but something so simple as reserving. Thogh I will mak ehtis army sometimes in the future...

P.S. ARRGH everytime I type the scroll bar goes up how do I make it stop!!!!!!??
Valten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:48   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NS Canada
Posts: 621
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Not everything likes coming in from reserves. Not entirely sure if you are implying that your entire army should be kept in reserve, I would suggest against that if it were the case. Bringing those scouts with sniper rifles in from reserve means that turn 1 they can't come in, they won't all be there until around turn 3, and can't fire when the do come in, meaning maybe on turn 4 before they become effective. You pay a certain amount of points for each unit, and if that unit is only effective for 2 turns out of an average of 6, you might as well be paying triple the cost!

So your concern with opponents going into reserves shouldn't be too bad. Basically, unless they have modifiers, it will be you entire army (or nearly so with Dpods) against half of theirs. You might get half of them on average. Next turn 1/4 of the army comes in, you are still facing half your points. Basically, you are ALWAYS going to outnumber him, and with enough mobility and force application can really just table them as they come. My friend did try this maneuver against my Eldar, I even got first turn to get a good firing position everywhere, and then it was a shooting gallery. Your list has a lot of pseudo mobility (scouts, dPods) as well as landspeeders, which grants you enough board control to counter enemy reserves with your own.

I am just kind of confused at what you are really wondering, what what I read you imply that reserves means all or nothing. I mean you can hold a few pods in reserve and field the rest of your army...

The most astonishing use of reserves happend last year around the new 5th Ed. rule coming out. It was a two-stage army. Half was on the field: 2 dev squads, 2 tac squads, assault marines with chaplain. In reserves were two more tac squads, and dreadnought (each with own pods (with launcher)) and a terminator squad with AC. Everytime, the enemy saw a weak army in front of them, positioned to take them out, and then the pods would hit where they over extended, didn't want me to and then the foot sloggers advance to take out everything in between. I mean, they always KNEW the pods were coming, but somehow didn't fully realize and each got caught.

Basically, reserves are great for high power units that rely on killing enemies before they get hit, in your army the sternguard are a very good example.
__________________
Alright Blood Angels, who wants to play pin the Tau on the carnifex!
Sau1us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 14:55   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 208
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

No...I posted the list to show a list like mine can be hosed when my oppenent reserves. How are you getting that you should pay triple points for a unit that is only on the board for 2 turns? What if that unit comes on and captures an objective or blows an oppenet off an objective? Then it has done its job and because of reseves has been safe for the first 4 turns of the game.
Valten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 15:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NS Canada
Posts: 621
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Well, its not that difficult to reason that a unit which is not actively engaged in the game (in reserves) is not contributing.

I don't think the enemy holding back units would present a list as posted with any real challenges. Certainly not any more of a challenge than a simple corner turtle. Then again reserves could mean outflankers, drop pods, or just holding units back in regular deployment, each requires separate considerations BUT:


Firstly: I put 6 turns as the benchmark game length, also not unreasonable. If the squad has heavy weapons, they cannot fire until turn after they arrive. They cannot arrive on turn 1, ever, and if arriving on turn 2 maybe three, they get shots for 2 maybe 3 turns of 6.

Second: That unit if deployed on the field first turn with a decent position allows for instantaneous use of that unit no matter the weapon type, and over several turns. Also while on the field, they will get shot, but this is not always bad. Dilution of fire away from another unit can be helpful in a support role. True hiding in reserves keeps ONE unit safe, while every other unit must take a fraction more shooting for each one removed. Furthermore anything done by the reserve forces upon arrival is more of a retaliatory and reactionary action, which could be fine.

Regardless, taking into account these reasons, I conclude that only using a 10 point model for 2 turns of 6 basically costs you a lot more than a 10 point model that is on the ground turn one doing something.

If a unit comes on from the side and totally ramrods something off an objective, great; but at what cost. Either that objective was already weak and could be removed by simply more shots (obtained by 3 turns of shooting), or the unit coming on is overkill for what it has done, leaving the rest of your army weak, and therefore your objectives weak.

I am not saying Reserves should never be used, but I am certain there is a curve of utility with these kind of units, as with any unit. No reserves isn't a great idea, but neither is all in, somewhere in the middle allows for a balanced tactical list.
__________________
Alright Blood Angels, who wants to play pin the Tau on the carnifex!
Sau1us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 16:53   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 208
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sau1us
Well, its not that difficult to reason that a unit which is not actively engaged in the game (in reserves) is not contributing.

I don't think the enemy holding back units would present a list as posted with any real challenges. Certainly not any more of a challenge than a simple corner turtle. Then again reserves could mean outflankers, drop pods, or just holding units back in regular deployment, each requires separate considerations BUT:


Firstly: I put 6 turns as the benchmark game length, also not unreasonable. If the squad has heavy weapons, they cannot fire until turn after they arrive. They cannot arrive on turn 1, ever, and if arriving on turn 2 maybe three, they get shots for 2 maybe 3 turns of 6.

Second: That unit if deployed on the field first turn with a decent position allows for instantaneous use of that unit no matter the weapon type, and over several turns. Also while on the field, they will get shot, but this is not always bad. Dilution of fire away from another unit can be helpful in a support role. True hiding in reserves keeps ONE unit safe, while every other unit must take a fraction more shooting for each one removed. Furthermore anything done by the reserve forces upon arrival is more of a retaliatory and reactionary action, which could be fine.

Regardless, taking into account these reasons, I conclude that only using a 10 point model for 2 turns of 6 basically costs you a lot more than a 10 point model that is on the ground turn one doing something.

If a unit comes on from the side and totally ramrods something off an objective, great; but at what cost. Either that objective was already weak and could be removed by simply more shots (obtained by 3 turns of shooting), or the unit coming on is overkill for what it has done, leaving the rest of your army weak, and therefore your objectives weak.

I am not saying Reserves should never be used, but I am certain there is a curve of utility with these kind of units, as with any unit. No reserves isn't a great idea, but neither is all in, somewhere in the middle allows for a balanced tactical list.

I think them reserving would prove to be quite a challenge for my list, it gives them target denial, my drop podders are out in the open and my storm w/ socuts really wants to hit turn 1 to cause the best damage and due to them simply reserving they have literally killed my army before the game begins. Im not saying I coudnt win but it is an uphill battle before it begins. Once agian though I think were focusing too much on my list and not the issue at hand.

To answer you points:

1. This may be the competivie side of me speaking but list these day field few if minial heavy weapons or if they do there on vehicles due to the meta being heavily mech.

2. Once agin Im not talking about just one unit im talking about whole armies being kept in reserve. You also say that a unit already on the table can instantaneously react and use their weapons but if they reserve there whole army then your unit doesnt get to use its weapon and instead jus stands there. The other issue is with all mech, your oppenent gets to roll on the board and since hes in vehciles get to unload on you while you got to stand around and do nothing.

I agree that an inbetween balance is great but its no the topic at hand.


The question is the rule to allow your whole army in reserve good or bad?
Valten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 16:57   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gatineau (Québec) Canada
Posts: 6,212
Send a message via MSN to Boneguard Send a message via Yahoo to Boneguard
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Depending on the army used this could actually allow his opponent to win right of the bat on turn 1 if he can prevent him to come out of Reserve.

Because remember Reserve must come out of your table edge. And, IIRC, if you declare a Reserve then infiltration and deepstriking is not allowed -unless they were specifically stated- since they are different mode of entry which act in a way similiar to reserve, but it is not reserve per say.

You know what I mean, we've all seen the wall of Kroot trick.
__________________
For the Greater Good!
For Ksi'm'yen and the 76th Moracre Light Armoured Guard

I Invite you to join my collective story and to add to it.

My ascension to GODHOOD
Boneguard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 Apr 2010, 17:05   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 208
Default Re: Reserving: is it an issue.?

Only works if you dont have any tanks which most people due. That is a one time trick too. Im thinking more long term here.
Valten is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Manticore issue messyart Imperial Guard 2 21 Jun 2008 22:30
Firebase Issue 6 now out Masked Thespian Games Workshop News and Rumours 4 09 Apr 2008 08:56
Jetbike issue. Taukki Tau 3 27 Mar 2007 01:34