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Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 10:56   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

I need to know what others think of this.

In both of these codices, the entry for most troops had stated that they carry both Bolters and bolt-pistols in addition to close-combat weapons. There's a fella at my LGS who told me that if during shooting phase, the Chaos Marines that used bolt pistols will charge and assault with +1 to their attack for close-combat weapons. Same goes for Space Marines since the wargear states so.

Now, I thought that's fine and dandy but then came this awkward moment. My Boyz was about to charge the Chaos Marines, he couldn't take a shot at me due to no Line of Sight. I charged and hit him full-fledged. Of course, Orks are slow and they hit back first as always, but he insisted that because he had not shot, he will use Bolt-pistols and Chainswords option, thus giving him 2 attacks each man. With 20~ attacks, he actually hit me very extremely hard before I can get the chance to him back.

So, opinion on this?
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 11:00   #2 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

This is the part where I tell you RTFM. Anyway...

Having Pistol Weapon and Close Combat Weapon always give a +1 to the model's Attack regardless whether he shot or not. Maybe you misunderstood him. Maybe he was saying that you shoot your pistol weapons (to weaken the target) before you assault him.
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 11:02   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Space Marines (I don't know about CSM) have a Bolter and Bolt Pistol but no CCW. This is true for Tactical squads, Scouts, Sternguard, Devastators, Legion of the Damned, and so on. Only the close-combat oriented Marines have CCWs.
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 11:06   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Quote:
Originally Posted by corsairmarks
Space Marines (I don't know about CSM) have a Bolter and Bolt Pistol but no CCW. This is true for Tactical squads, Scouts, Sternguard, Devastators, Legion of the Damned, and so on. Only the close-combat oriented Marines have CCWs.
Chaos Space Marines (including Plague Marines and Noise Marines) have both Bolters as well as Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. Same goes for Space Wolves' Grey Hunters Packs.
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 13:50   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

This issue is actually a lot more complicated than you might think, so I'm going to try and break it down...

Firstly, what you do in the shooting phase has no effect on how many attacls you make in the Assault Phase; it doesn't matter if you fired a pistol, a flamer or (assuming you have Relentless) a Lascannon - you still make the same number of attacks.

Next, having a Pistol & Close Combat Weapon, or two Close Combat weapons gives you +1 Attack in the assault phase UNLESS you have a piece of wargear that states otherwise. For example, a model with a Storm Shield can never claim +1 Attack for two close combat weapons.

Note that the rules for Pistols specifically state they count as close combat weapons. Therefore, a model with two pistols (say, a plasma pistol and bolt pistol) would receive +1 attack for two close combat weapons.

Now to add a further level of complexity, some armies (such as the Inquisition Codices) use 3rd/4th Edition rulesets that do not follow modern conventions. In those armies, models cannot carry more than two weapons unless specifically stated otherwise. In modern Codices (ie: Dark Angels onward) this is not the case. So, a Black Templar "Captain" cannot have a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, but a Dark Angel Captain can.


With me so far?


Finally, I would like to address the practical effect of multiple weapon sets. Specifically, the "Bolter + BP + CCW" combo.

A model with all three weapons always gets +1 A for two close combat weapons as stated above.
If they fire the Pistol, or fire nothing at all, they can charge in the Assault Phase.
If they fire the Bolter, they cannot charge as it is Rapid Fire.

Note that nothing in the rules stops you "swapping" weapons between phases. A rather extreme example comes from the Dark Angels, where a Captain can have a Storm Bolter, Plasma Pistol and a pair of Lightning Claws - four weapons total! In the Shooting Phase the Captain can elect to use either of his shooting weapons, and in the assault phase could choose to fight with his SB & PP (no bonus attacks), PP & 1 Claw (no bonus attacks, but benefits from Lightning Claw rules) or a pair of Lightning Claws (+1 Attack, benefits from Lightning Claw rules).

For the record, you could decide to fight with Bolter and CCW in close combat if you wanted to, but as you'd get no bonus Attack for doing so I cannot imagine why you would!
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 13:57   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Quote:
A model with all three weapons always gets +1 A for two close combat weapons as stated above.
If they fire the Pistol, or fire nothing at all, they can charge in the Assault Phase.
If they fire the Bolter, they cannot charge as it is Rapid Fire.
Wargamer broke it down excellently. You will always get a +1 attack in close combat when you have a Bolt Pistol/CCW (unless there is some codex exception). The only limitations are on whether you can assault or not following your shooting phase - Pistols can, as they are Assault weapons. Rapid Fire may not.
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 14:22   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Thanks for the info.

I guess I was misunderstood, because it's weird that Tact squads of both side can change their weapons like that.

Because that Chaos Marines didn't fire their bolters, they switched to using Bolt-pistols and chainswords when assaulted. So they get +1 attack and they still hit back with WS4 and I4, so that kinda hurts my moment there.
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 14:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Space Marines will not get a 2 weapon bonus as they only have Bolt Pistols, not CCWs. The Bolt Pistol is there for when you want to assault rather than Rapid Fire. There are exceptions to this, like Grey Hunters, but the generic Tactical squad has only a Bolter and Bolt Pistol - no CCW to get a +1 Attack.
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Old 05 Apr 2010, 13:10   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobb

In both of these codices, the entry for most troops had stated that they carry both Bolters and bolt-pistols in addition to close-combat weapons. There's a fella at my LGS who told me that if during shooting phase, the Chaos Marines that used bolt pistols will charge and assault with +1 to their attack for close-combat weapons. Same goes for Space Marines since the wargear states so.
I think the confusion has come from here. As everyone else has previously stated if you have two CC weapons, you get the +1 attack. However, (apart from a few exceptions) if you fire rapid fire weapons such as bolters, you are then unable to assault. I believe, that if a squad shoots with bolters, and then is the next players turn charged, they can use their close combat weapons and gain the +1, but I'm a little rusty. Still, wargamer's thorough explanation suggests that this is the case.

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Old 05 Apr 2010, 13:23   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Chaos Marines and Space Marines Wargears - Bolters/Boltpistols

Nah, Haddy, if you have 2 CCWs you will always get a +1 attack, regardless of who charges and when. The limitation discussed is that a Rapid Fire disallows you from assaulting after you shoot it. If you want to charge you must use your pistols.

If you use your Rapid Fire weapon and then get assault in your own turn, it doesn't matter. You've still got the +1 Attack.
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