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Always let Necrons go first and here is why!
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Old 11 Mar 2010, 14:45   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

I talked about this before and for some reason people get defensive about the topic. Since I'm more than likely will be facing Necrons than actually playing them I've decided to stick this topic in general for other armies to have an easier time against Necrons.

First off you need to know two important terms. WWBB or " we will be back!" allows the necron player to have units that fallen the turn before to get back up on a roll of 4 or higher similar to feel no pain. But unlike feel no pain, wwbb happens in the beginning of the Necron players turn and don't work if hit with double toughness attacks or close combat attacks that negate saves. I don't have a Necron codex handy so bear with me.

Second the Necrons can phase out. Phase out occurs at the end of the Necron players turn if I remember correctly. But it occurs when the Necron army is brought down to 25% of the necron starting size. But not all Necrons are Necrons. So here is a list of things that's not Necrons. Like I said I don't have a codex and going of memory. I may leave some out and may add when more informed.
Deceiver
Nightbringer
Scarabs
Monolith
Tomb Spyders
Pariahs ( can't remember if this unit is necron or not. It kinda doesn't matter cause my rule vs necrons JSWS = Just Shoot Warriors Silly)

So keeping JSWS in mind and taking out immortals you can phase out the necron army without shooting anything else in most cases. Some people may Field a lot of destroyers to the point when you finished with JSWS than you have to target destroyers second.

I'm not saying don't shoot non necrons. Units like scarabs can tie up units really well if you don't shot them. Target priority for phase out is another topic. I have to mention it cause it does relate to this topic.

Another point I have to make before I get on the main topic is Necron shooting. This has been Necron players arguments over this matter so I'll mention it here. Like sisters of battle, the necron army is a mid range army. Meaning most weapons rarely go above 24". This is important cause it relates to first turn firing.

In all the standard missions it's not hard for an army to be more than 24" away. I think dawn of war hurt Necrons the most but that's my opinion. Since this is an issue I'll mention most of the necron range weapons at 24" and more.

1. Gauss Blaster 24" range for immortals. Capable of killing Tau in the open. It's assault 2 which means they can move and shoot. If you deploy within 6" of the table edge and in similar case it's easy to deny them 1st turn fire.

2. Gauss Flayer 24" range with rapid fire. Lack of real transports mean the warriors probably won't be able to shoot in turn 1 as well.

3. Heavy Gauss 36" good anti- tank. So this destroyer can shoot first turn.

4. Gauss Cannon 36" very good anti- infantry. Destroyers can mow down troops in the 1st turn.

5. Particle Whip 24" ordnance large blast. All I got to say is you really don't want to get hit with this. But if you follow my advice about immortals than you can't get hit with this first turn either.

So the destroyers in the necron army is capable if 1st turn kills. If you infiltrate, have scouts, put your troops too close than more necrons will be hitting first turn. IMO the more destroyers, immortals, gods, monoliths, and other high cost models means less necrons and easier phase out.

Last but not least veil of darkness. It argued you can pop a unit from their side to your side unleashing what I seen so far is either immortal fire or warrior fire. I'm assuming mishap is possible with this power. But besides that you just made it easier for me to kill a lord and a unit of troops with that power. Besides using it to contest objectives I rarely if ever seen it used well. Almost always the lord and squad it brings get killed. I never seen destroyers used with this to hit rear armor or teleporting gods, swarms, or non necrons. I don't know if they can't or just don't realise they can do it.

I really don't like mentioning all if that but it comes up so I have to. But
This is why you let Necrons go first. The reason is due to wwbb and phase out. If they go first two things happen.

1. You deny them a turn of wwbb
2. They won't get wwbb at the end of the game and could phase out.

I'll use this example for 3 turns of play. Yes I know 5-7 turns is the average game length but 3 turns is easy and you should get the point. Several points was made about me breaking it down this way. I'll get to them but if you think about it the points are really don't matter.

Necrons Going First
starting out with 24 and losing 10 a turn
Turn 1.
Necrons: WWBB goes off and any Necrons that's down get back up. First turn fire unless fighting melee, scout, or infiltrate rs not much damage for turn 1 shooting

Player2: Fires back. If melee their moving transports, fleeting, flying, jumping, or what have you. 10 necrons go down.

Turn 2.
Necrons: WWBB goes off: 5 come back 19 total. Necrons closer shoots back doing more damage. Probably moving some units toward objectives.
Player2: Assault armies are assaulting at this point unless necrons stayed back
being passive. Shooting armies fire some more killing 10

Turn 3.
Necrons: WWBB goes off: 5 come back 14 total. Necrons either rapid firing or do what ever at this point.
Player2: Assault armies killing necrons a lot quicker than shooting armies due to power weapons and wiping out squads. Shooting armies kill 10 more.

4 men remains with a phase out of 6. The necrons could be winning due to objectives but would lose due to phase out.

Necron Player goes Second
24 necrons losing 10 men a turn

Turn 1.
Player 2: Fires killing 10 Necrons
Necrons: WWBB 5 for a total of 19

Turn 2.
Player 2: Fires killing 10 Necrons
Necrons: WWBB 5 for a total of 14

Turn 3.
Player 3: Fires killing 10 Necrons
Necrons: WWBB 5 for a total of 9

9 Necrons left with phase out at 6. Necrons is still left on the board contesting and even winning in some cases.

The point of the chart is to show why the Necrons shouldn't go second. Yes it would be hard to kill 10 models exactly a turn and melee armies wouldn't be able to kill Necrons in turn 1 etc. Whatever the argument it's not going to change the fact that if Necrons go first than it's easier for them to phase out.

If it take 2 turns for a melee army to get into contact. The melee army tend to do more damage than a shooting army. Melee armies are design to do well even though half the army got blown to bits before they got into combat. The order would still be the same and it would be easier for them to phase the necron player out if the necron player goes first.

I'll argue this point here. I'm not going to argue the point in the Necron page cause I was trying to actually throw in some help. I don't play Necrons so I rather talk about how to beat them instead of how they should win. But on the flip side you can say a Necron player should always go second cause it lowers the chance of phase out.

I played many times against necrons with tau, eldar, guard, and nids. Everytime they went first I was able to phase them out. I would had lost with Tau one game until I decided to remember JSWS and won due to phase out. Honestly I would had lost several times if it wasn't for phase out. My brother in law used to play me all the time with necrons. Once I read his codex and learned wwbb happens at the start of his turn and phase out happens at the end I would constantly slaughter him and phase him out. I had to show him what I was doing so he started to go second and the games was a lot closer. He still lost but it wasn't as bad and he didn't phase out as much.
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Old 11 Mar 2010, 14:48   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

Actually, your logical is completely backwards.

Phase out happens at the Beginning of the Necron Turn, right after checking for WBB. Therefore, your logical is the opposite of what you are thinking. You want necrons to go second, so that they have more opportunities to test for WBB. If necrons go first, you can eliminate the whole army but one model in your turn, and they'll not phase out.

Therefore, your advice is actually good for necron players. Please keep spreading it around .

What does JSWS stand for?
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Old 11 Mar 2010, 15:09   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindgobble Witherfume
Actually, your logical is completely backwards.

Phase out happens at the Beginning of the Necron Turn, right after checking for WBB. Therefore, your logical is the opposite of what you are thinking. You want necrons to go second, so that they have more opportunities to test for WBB. If necrons go first, you can eliminate the whole army but one model in your turn, and they'll not phase out.

Therefore, your advice is actually good for necron players. Please keep spreading it around .

What does JSWS stand for?
JSWS is Just Shoot Warriors Silly. The more warriors you shoot the easier fir phase out. Simply due to the warriors being the easiest to deal with and the Necrons have many things that can distract and forget JSWS.

So it happens at the beginnig of the Necron turn after wwbb. I really couldn't remember when it happens. So necrons don't phase out at the end of the game if they're below the phase out number. That's wierd than. I guess they read it wrong. I won several games cause at the end they was below phase out. That falls under if you play that army know that army rules. I guess the store owner have everyone screwed up.

If that is the case than it's reverse of what I said.
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Old 12 Mar 2010, 00:01   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

I have a question for the WBB, I play with a Necron player and he is fairly new and I know very little about them. Say I drop 10 warriors that will be able to use the WBB rule, he rolls a 4, does that mean all 10 come back with just that one roll?

The reason I am asking is because the guy I play against rolls for each necron that could come back. Just want to know should he be making one roll or 10?
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Old 12 Mar 2010, 00:10   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

No, each Warrior must make its own WBB role. 10 down means 10 dice to roll.

As a point though, if you take down 10 models in a unit of 10, they cannot WBB unless there is another warrior unit or a Lord within 6(?) inches. Might be 12 inches though.
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Old 12 Mar 2010, 00:22   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

Ok cool we were doing it correctly then, just reading the above post made me think about it. Thanks!
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Old 12 Mar 2010, 00:38   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Always let Necrons go first and here is why!

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Legend
As a point though, if you take down 10 models in a unit of 10, they cannot WBB unless there is another warrior unit or a Lord within 6(?) inches. Might be 12 inches though.
6"

Chicop, going first is actually beneficial to the Necron player, as Grind has pointed out. Using your example, the Necrons go first and shoot the enemy, which means less return fire. Also, on turn 5/6/7 at the end of the enemies turn, if the game doesn't go on, Phase Out never happens. You can have 0 Necrons left (Say you had a scarab base in the far corner) and you wouldn't phase out, as it doesn't happen until after you roll WBB.
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