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Blatant cheating and etiquette
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 08:35   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Blatant cheating and etiquette

Hi, I've been away for a bit and not posted, but I'm back and with a question of etiquette.

With much less spare time than I used to, I don't have time to play often, so I've taken to using Vassal since it requires virtually no set-up time, no travelling, packing/unpacking minis, etc.

Sometimes, however, I just watch other people's games. And I see a disturbing amount of outright cheating going on.

As as example, I watched a game for a few minutes the other day with SoB (one of my fave armies) vs Necrons. The SoB player had taken Demonhosts from the DH codex randomly (and illegally), and had told the Necron player that he hit and wounded SoBs on 4s with his Warriors rather than 3s as it should be.

I expect if I'd watched a bit longer, I would've seen some more dodgy play.

So the question is: Should a spectator, a random stranger such as myself, draw attention to this? Call him on it publicly? Or privately? Or just have a quiet word in private with the player that's being cheated?
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 08:44   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortgoth
Hi, I've been away for a bit and not posted, but I'm back and with a question of etiquette.

With much less spare time than I used to, I don't have time to play often, so I've taken to using Vassal since it requires virtually no set-up time, no travelling, packing/unpacking minis, etc.

Sometimes, however, I just watch other people's games. And I see a disturbing amount of outright cheating going on.

As as example, I watched a game for a few minutes the other day with SoB (one of my fave armies) vs Necrons. The SoB player had taken Demonhosts from the DH codex randomly (and illegally), and had told the Necron player that he hit and wounded SoBs on 4s with his Warriors rather than 3s as it should be.

I expect if I'd watched a bit longer, I would've seen some more dodgy play.

So the question is: Should a spectator, a random stranger such as myself, draw attention to this? Call him on it publicly? Or privately? Or just have a quiet word in private with the player that's being cheated?
I don't know about Vassal, but at your LGS, if you see someone playing wrong, don't outright accuse them of cheating, act like you're interested in the game and ask the WS stats of each units, and then just be like "Shouldn't he hit on 3's?". Just simply pointing these things out will prevent it/correct it, and not being accusation about it makes sure noone gets mad
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 09:07   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

It depends on the player tbh.

Gentle reminders in the manner PNW suggested work most of the time, but notorious cheaters need to be put in their place with a firm and unyielding rulebook to their face.

I do not hesitate to call cheaters out when they do it often. If it's blatant (grossly wrong weapon stats/abilities/shady tactics) I generally treat tghe person as a Type 2 if my continued observation shows multiple infractions popping up.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 09:20   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

I was watching a game of Dark Eldar against marines. It was dreadful. The dark eldar player had 4 dark lances in each of his infantry squads (when they can only have 2) and he claimed that his Raider transports had 3 dark lances (thats actually ravagers, which cost more) so he was shooting something ridiculous like 24 S8 AP2 lance weapons a turn.

Anyways if im looking at a game, and i see something wrong, especially if i know the team like orks or Tau. But i play in games workshops, and while the staff arent referees, they are always glancing, and are willing to answer any question to avoid confusion. I was against a marine player with my orks, and the staff member told my opponent he could only have 1 assault cannon terminator in his 5 man squad, and i wouldve let him take it coz i didnt know. But if its blatent, the least you can do is politely tell them that somethings up. I mean, once someone was using marines as guard allies so hed have enough points to play, and ppl were constantly saying that imperial guard cant have this make up of a tactical squad as allies unless their demon hunters or what not and i just had to say that im his opponent, and i said he can use them coz otherwise he wouldnt have enough points.

Anyways i spose it depends on the game and if the other player knows that its happening. If both ppl know then its fine not to say nethying otherwise id probs just let them know
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 09:46   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

Dont be forceful at first. Be nice about it.

I was having a casual game with a dude, and at the end when we were counting objectives we said i had 2 and he had 3, and apparently i had 1 because my unit was exactly 3 inches away from 1 of the objectives. (and my opponent said i had it even before i did!)

Me and the other guy didnt care, we were like hey its fine, hes in range, and the random guy tried to force it and other things on us. Pissed me off.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 12:25   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

Sadly, I believe that without a fair grasp of the rules, newbies are always going to be vulnerable to foul play. :-[

Perhaps it's best to introduce them to gaming at clubs, where there are always a few impartial spectators to keep an eye on things, rather than in private games where they are at the mercy of their more knowledgeable opponents.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 13:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

At my LGS there was always people ready to help if need be.

Though often people can't get to clubs so they use vassal where a lot of people try and cheat as you can't see each other or their codex. Thankfully I have an AOBR rulebook with the summary table to check things.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 13:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortgoth
Hi, I've been away for a bit and not posted, but I'm back and with a question of etiquette.

With much less spare time than I used to, I don't have time to play often, so I've taken to using Vassal since it requires virtually no set-up time, no travelling, packing/unpacking minis, etc.

Sometimes, however, I just watch other people's games. And I see a disturbing amount of outright cheating going on.

As as example, I watched a game for a few minutes the other day with SoB (one of my fave armies) vs Necrons. The SoB player had taken Demonhosts from the DH codex randomly (and illegally), and had told the Necron player that he hit and wounded SoBs on 4s with his Warriors rather than 3s as it should be.
SOB can take DH allies, and vice versa. There is an elite slot in the allies force org. Demonhosts simply cant be taken if you take grey knights. There are legal ways to have Demonhosts with SOB.

As for the hitting on 4s, that is completely correct. SoBs are WS4, as are necrons. Wounding should generally be on 3s.

I would generally correct a mistake in gameplay by asking if it were correct(I mean, I can be mistaken too). Generally, it's not intentional cheating, and even if it is, there's little to be gained by making a fuss at first.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 16:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
As for the hitting on 4s, that is completely correct. SoBs are WS4, as are necrons. Wounding should generally be on 3s.
I thought he meant from range, in which case it would be incorrect, as Necrons hit on 3's.
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Old 18 Aug 2009, 16:29   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Blatant cheating and etiquette

How to call cheating:

Step 1. Politely comment on the cheat - and say are you sure thats right. (Reason: Some people can be new, and be getting it wrong because of it. First step is to always be a polite gamer)

Step 2, if they continue: Call them on it. Tell them to read the damn rulebook, and make some derogatory comment about their mother. There is no call for persistant cheating.

As for Vassal - if the spectators are generally talkin etc, then make a comment a la step 1 - the guy might not be doing it on purpose.

If it looks like he is abusing it - message the guy being cheated - let him know what his opponent is pulling.

And I was only half serious about step 2 :P
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