Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

How does wound doubling work?
Reply
Old 31 Jul 2009, 16:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,958
Default How does wound doubling work?

Under 5th edition wound allocation rules, it is far from clear what happens when something inflicts double wounds. The main offenders here are Implant Attack from the Tyranids or any blast or template weapon against swarms because they suffer from "Vulnerable to Blasts / Templates." Implant Attack isn't too bad since it rarely gets strong enough to inflict Instant Death on a multiple-wound model, and the wording from the codex specifies that it applies when a model (not unit) suffers an Implant Attack wound. There seems to be consensus that Implant Attack only does anything against multi-wound models, but the same can not be said for swarms.

Blasts against swarms are a problem. Most swarms are Toughness 3, making any blast of Strength 6 or more inflict Instant Death. A hammerhead submunition, demolisher cannon, battle cannon, plasma cannon, and soul grinder's Phlegm, to name a few, all can produce this situation. So, what happens? Vulnerable to Blasts / Templates states that
Quote:
If the unit is a vehicle, then each hit counts as two hits. If it is not a vehicle, each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds. (Rulebook, page 76)
Instant Death against multi-wound models states that
Quote:
If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death...
Unfortunately, there is no official word on how these two rules interact. One argument, which I was pretty sure was correct until I started going back over this, is that VtB/T (Vulnerable to Blasts / Templates) is applied before ID (Instant Death). Using that theory, you would roll to wound (wounding on all but 1's since this is an ID hit), make the saves, double the unsaved wounds, and apply ID twice for each, which would remove two bases at a time. This would be fairly devastating to swarms, as I suppose it should be considering the amount of firepower coming down.

The counter-argument is that the wounds are doubled per model so that VtB/T has no effect. You can't kill a model twice, so in this situation each model would absorb two Instant Death hits even though there are no other cases where that occurs. The only real support for this interpretation is the two-part wording of VtB/T where it specifies different resolutions for vehicles and non-vehicles. If GW had intended for the results to always be doubled, then why make different rules for the two classes of unit? It would have been cleaner to apply double hits before resolving wounds or armor penetration. This would be simpler except for rolling double the dice, it would produce statistically the same result, and you would avoid the slightly odd situation of always removing an even number of swarm bases.

Honestly, I think doubling the hits before resolving them would make a good house rule. It minimizes the chances of failing to wound with an Instant Death hit (you'd have to roll two 1's), which I've always found rather silly; it makes a consistent resolution for both vehicles and non-vehicles; and all it takes is some extra dice rolling. A few more dice is not likely to worry anyone who's ever charged into melee with harlequins, kroot, tyranids, or orks!

Speaking of vehicles, is there anything in the game that is actually a vehicle that has VtB/T?

So, what do you think? This topic was debated 6-12 months ago and got locked without resolution, but maybe we can do better this time around. Let's keep it civil.
knightperson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 16:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 674
Send a message via AIM to Wild
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

Good question knight. Let's break it down step by step for the swarms.

1: Roll to hit
2: Roll to wound
3: If ID, remove whole models whenever possible.

Now that's fine and dandy for regular, but the swarms being caused double wounds, is also made simpler by the fact that there is in fact no differential between the models in nearly every case, if not all. Remember you have to allocate the single wounds first to each model, and unless there's a swarm unit out there that somehow has different equipment etc., then it's a moot point, and all of the wounds caused would still double and still ID everyone.
__________________
Wild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 17:00   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 59
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

So you fire your hammerhead submuntion and it lands on target covering 6 swarm models out of 10. You roll 6 dice to wound and come up with 5 wounds. Are you saying you remove 10 models? The whole squad even though only 6 of them were in the affect of the blast in the first place?
skybronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 17:03   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ota, Gunma Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 3,764
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

It seems to me that there's no conflict here at all. A doubled wound can NEVER affect a second model. Ergo, when a unit with the Swarm rule takes Instant Death wounds, all that happens is that each base affected takes 2 wounds, both of which inflict Instant Death upon it.

For example, a unit of 4 Scarab Swarms (3 wounds each) is hit by a Battle Cannon. If the unit suffers 3 wounding hits then three bases will each take two wounds each that will inflict Instant Death upon the same base. The net result is that three whole bases of Scarabs are removed. Without Instant Death, only one base would be removed, one base would have 1 wound remaining, and two bases would be unharmed.
__________________
[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
Masked Thespian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 17:05   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

They do not stack. The two effects, doubling, and instant death happen at the exact same time. You can't double first, then apply instant death. When you have two effects, use the greater of the two. This is consistant in all of 40k(such as attacking with a CCW and a power weapon) In this case, instant death is the greater, so you use that.

To the best of my knowledge, 'nids and 'crons are the only units with swarms, and neither faq addresses this explicitly, nor does the general 40k faq. However, this is universally the way it's been ruled in tournaments for my scarab army.

In the case of the hammerhead submunition, six models are removed. If the strength was not high enough to cause ID, then 12 wounds are inflicted, and whole models must be removed where possible(assuming homogenous unit of all swarms)
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 17:07   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
It seems to me that there's no conflict here at all. A doubled wound can NEVER affect a second model. Ergo, when a unit with the Swarm rule takes Instant Death wounds, all that happens is that each base affected takes 2 wounds, both of which inflict Instant Death upon it.
Actually, yeah, this comes up with the Exitus Assassin's special round. It's resolved by doubling the wound after a failed save as well. The same model HAS to lose the second wound, neither player can redistribute it, even if the model has no more wounds.
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 18:34   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 319
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

Also, and this is with my lack of other factions templates, but I believe the only template that the vulnerable to blast templates rule comes into play is a flamer/heavy flamer. And it would simply cause 2 wounds for every swarm hit.
Instant death overrides the vulnerable rule because they didn't even live to take excess wounds.
Ekiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 18:41   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

It's all templates now, I believe, according to RAW in the swarms entry in current codex.

Of course, even the doubling is handy. The tau AFP is quite effective at killing scarabs due to negating their awesome cover save, then doubling wounds.
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 19:36   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ota, Gunma Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 3,764
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekiel
I believe the only template that the vulnerable to blast templates rule comes into play is a flamer/heavy flamer.
Incorrect. A Blast weapon is one that uses the circular templates (either size) and a Template weapon is one that uses the teardrop shaped template (as defined on pages 30 and 29 respectively of the rulebook). Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates states that it refers to both Blast and Template weapons (page 76 of the rulebook).
__________________
[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
Masked Thespian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 Jul 2009, 22:46   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 377
Default Re: How does wound doubling work?

The wording of the rules seem clear. A battle cannon hit would kill two bases of scarabs, in the above example. A single unsaved battle cannon becomes two because of the rules for swarms. These two wounds have to be allocated to two scarab swarms because they cause instant death. Two bases of scarabs die. The end.
Domitian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rules Question on falling back, what determines doubling back? Ekiel General 40K 4 28 Jun 2010 11:22
A newbie's work - Samples of Merrick's work. Merrick Showcase 8 10 Oct 2009 00:32
MOVED: A newbie's work - Samples of Merrick's work. Nightmare Project Logs 0 09 Oct 2009 23:34
Exactly what do they mean with doubling back...? Rhawin General 40K 6 08 Aug 2008 17:43
Multi-wound crisis suit wound distribution RebelTau Tau 20 24 Dec 2006 12:30