[commanderbrightsword]

I am fairly new to 40k and my friends didn't really have an experienced player to help us learn the rules and while playing we have come across a few problems involving Instant death.

1. I know that you don't get armor saves aginst ID but do you get cover or invanurable saves?

2. Is ID taken into account in CC?

[Typhon]

1. Wrong, you do get an armour save against instant death, let's say a Str 6 Ap - shoots a an imperial guardsmen (T3) it hits and wounds, the guardsman gets his save, however if he fails it and has multiple wounds he dies via instant death. The AP (armour peircing is key).

2. Yes Instant death is taken into accout in CC.

Hope this helped, Typhon- the dark god

PS ninja'd

[knightperson]

Instant Death occurs anytime a unit takes an unsaved wound from a weapon with a strength twice or more the toughness of the model, but it is considered separately from the armor save. Bike models often have a "split toughness" like 4(5) where you roll to wound against the larger number, but use the smaller for Instant Death calculations. There are a few weird weapons (Force swords, Wraithcannon, etc) that don't have a strength value in the usual sense but their descriptions specify that they cause Instant Death.

What is probably confusing you is the interaction between Instant Death and Feel No Pain. Feel No Pain is essentially another save, but there are occasions where you can't take it. You can not make a Feel No Pain roll to negate a wound that was caused by an Instant Death attack, an AP1 or AP2 ranged wound, a melee wound from a power weapon or monstrous creature, or any other wound that always denies armor saves. Note that "always denies armor save" refers to all armor, not just yours. An ork with a 5+ save and Feel No Pain would get a Feel No Pain roll against a tau rail rifle (S6 AP3), although he would not get an armor save. He would not get Feel No Pain from a plasma rifle (because it's AP2) or a seeker missile (because its Strength 8 causes Instant Death). Against a lasgun, he would get an armor save then a Feel No Pain if he failed the armor save.

[DarthIbis]

Originally Posted by crothhaar

1. I know that you don't get armor saves aginst ID but do you get cover or invanurable saves?

Whether or not you can take your armour save is determined by the AP of the weapon, not the weapon strength. A S6 AP- weapon wounding a Commissar would still allow him to take his 5+ armour save, but if he fails, it would kill him in spite of him having 2 wounds. Instant Death really applies only to multiple-wound models. Cover and Invulnerable saves can always be taken (unless the weapon specifies otherwise like flamers ignoring cover.)

2. Is ID taken into account in CC?

No. By that, if you mean strength being double toughness? "Models usually get to save regardless of the attacker's Strength" (p39.) Keeping that in mind, special CC weapons such as Power weapons, Powerfists and Monstrous Creatures will ignore armour save. Check the special rule of any CC weapon to determine whether or not it is exempt. The Instant Death rule, as written on p26 only pertains to shooting attacks.

[Shas vre Tau kais]

I can see the cause of your confusion, as often instant death attacks ignore armour, but this is not always the case, all other rules for allowing saves still apply.

[Circus Freak]

Actually, Knightperson, that's not strictly true. The Force weapon does not cause Instant Death, it merely kills instantly. It's not the same thing. As such, models immune to Instant Death are NOT immune to Force Weapons.

[GKTerminator]

Actually Knigtperson was right. Force weapons now cause instant death per the BRB. The only exception to this rule is the Grey Knight Force weapon. So an army entry that has Eternal warrior, or is otherwise immune to instant death will be immune to the FW.

It rather sucks, especially with Tyranids and Daemons being so damn tough and you have to chew through all the wounds.

[Circus Freak]

Hold on, it was definitely changed... did it USED to not cause Instant Death?

[Droids_Rule]

Originally Posted by Circus

Hold on, it was definitely changed... did it USED to not cause Instant Death?

Yes, in 4th Edition. 5th makes it Instant Death. :P

[GKTerminator]

Previously if it caused 1 unsaved wound against a model with multiple wounds, a successful test would reduce the afflicted model to 0 wounds. As the wording for Force weapons still reads in the Daemonhunters book, however the newer codecies now read it as "per the 40K rulebook" which states it causes instant death. (now)