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Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 06:42   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

This situation cropped up y`day. i had my chaos obliterators and berzerkers locked on a seer council with an autarch thrown in too. the seer council rode jetbikes on big flying bases. Here is a rough sketch of how they were placed.


O = Obliterators
B = Berserker
W= Warlock on jetbike
F = Farseer on jetbike
A = Autarch on Jetbike


O O
B W
B W
B B F
B B W
B B W

A


1. the 1st casualty removed was the top most warlock during init.4 Can the oblits fight back since in their init.1 they had enemies removed during higher init turn? (If i`m not Mistaken, on page 41 BRB it said that you see who is locked at the start of the assault phase, NO?)

2. can excess wounds from the obliterators recur on the farseer and also on the autarch since they are both ind. characters? they were more than 2 inches away from them and definitely not in B2B.

Thanks guys, appreciate your help

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Old 09 Nov 2008, 07:01   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

Doesn't it say something under the "Who can fight?" section of the assault phase rules that all models engaged in combat on the first turn of the assault get all their attacks?
I think it's the paragraph under the 2 bullet points...

If that's the case then you'd remove casualties after all combat and not in initiative order, I'd think...
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 07:07   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

no, casualties are still removed as they are killed, not at the end of combat. the rule about all locked models being able to attack all other locked models was to prevent the ol' fourth ed trick of 'tactical casualty removal', where you would remove models in such a way that powerful, low-init models (ie. guys with powerfists) had nothing to swing at when their turn came to attack.
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 07:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

ah... still haven't got some of the assault rules memorized yet...
But isn't that what the opponent was doing - trying to get the lower-init oblits out of combat, when under the 5th rules they still get to attack the target unit?
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 09:54   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

You still remove models as you figure out the casualties from each initiative level. I think what is supposed to stop the whole 'kill-zone' issue is the 'closest models' qualification for assaulting and the 'defenders react' move. This should, in most cases, maximise the number of models in base contact.

It looks to me like the warlock at the top of the back row should probably be in contact with your obliterators. It looks like your opponent charged, but deliberately put his first warlock in contact with both of your obliterators to pin them before they could do a 'defenders react' move. What should happen is the warlock must take the shortest route to contact the closest obliterator, and that should have allowed your second, further away one to get in to the fight by contacting the base of a different enemy model.
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 13:52   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

unless terrian was in the way ever model 99% should of been in base to base with one model.
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 15:33   #7 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

Here's a run-down of how it works:

Step 1: Attacker charges.

Step 2: Defender "counter-charges" to get as many models in combat as possible.

Step 3: Determine who can fight. All models in base contact, and all models within 2" of a model in base contact can fight.

Step 4: Resolve attacks, starting with the highest initiative. Models may still attack even if they find themselves "out of range" later in the combat due to casualty removal, as you determine at the start of combat who can fight, not when the model is ready to attack.


Please note as well that Casualties can now come from anywhere in the unit. As such, you do not need to remove models who are "locked" in combat (indeed, it is often a hindrance to do so, as you may be losing out on attacks).
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 19:36   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

The only way to prevemt a unit from attacking is to lock down a model with something it cannot effect, ie a Dreadnaught. As long as you keep no other models getting into base to base that model who is base to base with the dread must attack it despite not being able to effect it.
I keep a close eye on where squad Leaders are who have only power swords. As soon as i find one I get my Dreadnaught into base with that model by ensure that it is the closest model to my Dreadnaught before I charge in.
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Old 09 Nov 2008, 19:41   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Denied a chance of fighting in C/C by init.

however a smart opponent can know what you are doing. What if he lays a trap for you. It the person only has a power sword however melta guns could be a problem. so make sure to smoke if he can melta you.
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