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Defender's React
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Old 18 Oct 2008, 18:50   #1 (permalink)
77
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Defender's React

I was playing a game today and came across an interesting scenario.

I charged a unit with some genestealers on one side of the unit and a Lictor on the other. It looked something like this:


---> G M M
---> G M M M L <-----
M


G = Genestealer
M = Marine
L = Lictor
----> = Direction the unit charged


So how does the react move come into play here? The rules say that the defenders react once all the assault moves have been made. This being the case, I would think that the unit is confined to move only as much as allows them to remain in unit coherency.

Is this right, or should it be played differently?
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Old 18 Oct 2008, 20:08   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Defender's React

Hmmm, that's a tough one. Personally, I'd default to page 41's "Defenders React" clarification. Even though your scenario isn't from a previous turn, it still works. But that's just my interpretation. I don't see anything specific.

Alternatively, there's nothing that makes you have to keep coherency during a defenders react move. So technically the squad could split up but they'd be penalized for it later.
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Old 18 Oct 2008, 22:37   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defender's React

77 your opponent do have to stay in coherency. It says "it follows the same rules as assaulting models." So actually he has to stay within coherency and get as many models in as possible. So Aureus you are wrong. That is therules as written but it seems sort of like an oxymoron.
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Old 19 Oct 2008, 18:40   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Defender's React

To make things easier I would probably do one assault at a time? As in your stealers charge in, defender's react, then the lictor charges and tries to get into base with as many models as possible but the defenders don't react as they have already entered combat?

??? Although the rules may want this all to be simultaneous, it might be the easiest solution.
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Old 19 Oct 2008, 18:59   #5 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Defender's React

I am not sure. When you move assaulters, you have to make sure that each model you move ends in coherency with another model from the same unit that has already moved. Same thing with a Defender reaction move.

But it does not say that the unit as a whole has to remain in coherency. If you are charged on two sides, it should be possible to move unengaged models so that they end their move in coherency with part of their own unit, but still with a big gap in the middle. This never happens with charging because you move models one at a time and you have to move everyone, so you can't build a second "island" of coherency on one side.

It is strange, but by RAW the unit would have to choose which side to react towards. The first model to be moved would be the one you had to move the second into coherency with, so everyone would have to react that way. But this would leave one side of the assault stranded rather than leaving unengaged models to bridge coherency.

Personally, I would house-rule it. Just try to keep coherency on the two sides, but you can't keep them in coherency with each other.
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Old 19 Oct 2008, 20:12   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defender's React

During movement, you always have to maintain coherency. They do cover that due to casualties you can lose coherency, but in the movement phase they need to regain coherency. But if they can't move, they can regain coherency the moment they are able to move again. So it is quite possible to have your unit completely split up because of assaults.
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 02:06   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Defender's React

What we have here is a very contradictory rules situation. According to the rules the following must happen in a defenders react.

1) Models not in base to base contact must move up to 6" into base to base contact.
2) Models must try to use this move to maintain unit coherency.
3) Models in base to base contact are engaged and may not move.

Obviously, in 77's scenario, the two marines in the center must attempt to reach base to base contact which violates unit coherency. The two models on either side who are engaged are "stranded" and cannot move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Wu
77 your opponent do have to stay in coherency. It says "it follows the same rules as assaulting models." So actually he has to stay within coherency and get as many models in as possible. So Aureus you are wrong. That is the rules as written but it seems sort of like an oxymoron.
Well, before you flatly say that someone is wrong, I suggest that you consider the rules situation fully. The rules do in fact say that the defender's react rule follows the same rules of assaulting models...except...

"The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"

In a defender's react move, no model in your unit has already moved. So this rule is void. This rule also doesn't preface that the entire unit has to maintain 'unit coherency' only coherency. Albeit, that is a weak argument but bear with me.

Points 2 & 3 under "Moving Assaulting Models" is easy enough as that's the entire point of a Defenders React move.

Point 4 gets a little sticky as we're not sure which direction to move.

Point 5 is simply impossible in the above scenario because if the marines go either direction, the unit coherency is broken.

So, you see, Doctor Wu, the rules query is not so cut and dry as you would suggest.
[hr]
In the end, 77, I'd probably roll a d6 for this one. On a 1-3 they can break coherency and on a 4-6 they have to maintain coherency but try to get within coherency of an engaged model.[/i][/i]
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 02:25   #8 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Defender's React

But Defenders React just like a normal assault move. So you have the five points following the first model's movement that determine how all of the others move. So there is one model that moves first. Whichever model is closest to the enemy (in this case, closest but not in base-to-base). I honestly do think this question has a solid RAW answer which makes some degree of sense. You have to move to one side or another, but you only have to end the movement of each individual model in coherency. Coherency of the unit as a whole can (and in fact must) be broken.
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 15:59   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defender's React

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sau1us
To make things easier I would probably do one assault at a time? As in your stealers charge in, defender's react, then the lictor charges and tries to get into base with as many models as possible but the defenders don't react as they have already entered combat?

??? Although the rules may want this all to be simultaneous, it might be the easiest solution.
The rules do want the charges to be simultaneous. The rules say that the react move happens after all charging units have made their assault move. The reason that I charged like that from two directions is to keep the unit spread and maximize the impact of the 2 Genestealers and the single Lictor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
But Defenders React just like a normal assault move. So you have the five points following the first model's movement that determine how all of the others move. So there is one model that moves first. Whichever model is closest to the enemy (in this case, closest but not in base-to-base). I honestly do think this question has a solid RAW answer which makes some degree of sense. You have to move to one side or another, but you only have to end the movement of each individual model in coherency. Coherency of the unit as a whole can (and in fact must) be broken.
My hope in charging like that was to force the unit to remain coherent, potentially taking away some attacks from the marines in the middle. The last bullet point on pg. 34 would suggest that they must remain in coherency when making their react move. If the react move is done like an assault move, then this case would also follow the multiple assault rules on pg. 41.

The only grey area for me is the matter of coherency. Does the charged unit need to remain coherent or not? Aureus, I think that you made compelling arguements for either instance to happen.
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 16:38   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defender's React

I understand what you wanted to happen, but 5th Edition has made that particular form of tactical charging pretty hard to pull off, if not impossible. It is very difficult to keep models in a charged unit out of the fight.

The last bullet point on 34 only applies if none of the other conditions can be met. And if you are charging on both sides and they can move 6", that is pretty unlikely. Even then, the condition just specifies that the moving models have to remain in coherency when they are moved. There is nothing in there that actually enforces coherency for the unit.

The paragraph at the bottom says that this will leave them in coherency, but it is really for true assault moves. Following the step-by-step instructions for moving models, I don't think there is a good argument for "coherency bridges" of unengaged models in 5th.
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