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Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.
View Poll Results: Are the warriors tall enough to grant the battlewagon a cover save from the Carnifex?
Yes they are tall enough, the carnifex can not draw line of sight over warriors. 1 8.33%
Yes the they are tall enough to grant cover but not tall enough to block line of sight. 2 16.67%
No they aren't tall enough to block a fex's line of sight nor grant cover at that distance. 9 75.00%
We should always assume that monstrous creatures can shoot over standard models that arent meant to be particularly tall. 0 0%
We should always follow WYSIWYG for line of sight. So if your model is looking at the floor that's all you can shoot. 0 0%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17 Oct 2008, 06:45   #1 (permalink)
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Default Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

So I had this issue come up in a game I just had and I wanted to know how the rest of the community felt about it.

I had a carnifex positioned behind a unit of Tyranid Warriors. 24" away on the other side of the board my opponent had an Ork Battlewagon. So it looked kinda like this:

It's hard to scale it properly here but you get the gist of it the warriors were about 1 to maybe 2" at most away from the fex. The battle wagon was out of the range of the deathspitters so more than 24" away.
C = Carnifex
w = warriors
B = Battlewagon

Unfortunately this was in a game of vassal where it's hard to tell heights. And we were debating about the battlewagon getting a cover save or not when being shot at by the carnifex. So what do you guys think? Does the battlewagon get a cover save?

My argument is that the carnifex should be tall enough to shoot over the warriors, just like other monstrous creatures that tend to be able to see over regular models. And that the battlewagon would not be 50% shrouded at that great distance that he was from me.

The further away he is the easier it should be to see him completely if i can draw a line of sight and there's nothing infront of him to intervene with my view. As models infront of me, would disturb my sight the closer he were to get. And for vehicles and monstrous creatures the 50% in cover rule takes precedence above all other rules.

He argued that he had a cover save simply because there were intervening models.

After much bickering on both ends I suggested that we leave it at a 5+ cover save and carry on. However this did bring up an interesting point, as carnifexes sure usually modeled with a hunchback pose but not necesarily do you need to model them that way as you CAN make them a bit more upright as many have done. However in Vassal you only see the sprite and have no way to determine if it's pose is tall enough to draw line of sight over warriors.

Has anyone else had a similar situation with any other monstrous creature that was trying to fire some shots? And should there be a 'standard' height in games like Vassal? otherwise on the standard hunchback position a carnifex would be granting cover saves from being behind gaunts if you modeled him looking downward.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 06:57   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

Vehicles gaining cover simply for intervening models? I thought you only got that with fast vehicles.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 07:30   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsi
Vehicles gaining cover simply for intervening models? I thought you only got that with fast vehicles.
No as far as I know, no vehicles get cover from intervening models UNLESS the models obscure them 50% or more. The real debate is wether or not a carnifex can see over a warrior.

Using a real life example. Shaquille O' Neal would be your carnifex. He's 7'1" tall. So let's say someone that stands 6'5" as the height of a Warrrior stands infront of Shaq in the middle of the street a couple of feet away.

Say about 4 feet away.

And 2 blocks down from that person there was an large SUV vehicle driving towards them. How does Shaq not see most of the vehicle at that distance??? The further away the vehicle is, the easier it should be to look over the person's head or shoulder and see the whole vehicle.

Here's a makeshift drawing of what i mean:


As far as I'm aware, this is how human vision works. In order for him to get a cover save we'd have to assume that vision works like this instead:



Making the warrior an obstacle that completely obscures everything that is of his own height no matter the distance infront. And that just seems really wrong as this is not how it works in real life. If someone stands infront of you and you are taller you are able to see everything up ahead just fine unless it's a short distance away from the person infront of you.

So the farther out you are looking, the better your view gets.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 09:44   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

I'm 6'2" tall, and I see over people all the time. The only area that is blocked by a shorter person is what is directly in front of them, like in your first illustration. I say the warriors would not block his sight with the battlewagon at that far a distance.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 13:11   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

I would say it still gets a cover save. The Fex isn't that much taller than the Warriors and even if they are right in front of him he would have to hold his guns right over his head which I doubt the Fex model is capable of, to actually get a clear shot on the Wagon, which would make shooting harder and thus give the Wagon a justifiable cover save.

Generally I have been playing where if theres a chance of cover, just give it. It seems to be a big part of the new edition and how GW wanted it, probably to decrease damage potential to make for more tactical games. Plus it works both ways. Just make sure that if you give it and you are in a similar position later, then you get the same benefit, then its all fair.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 13:16   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

It's really unlikely in the setup of your original scenario in the first post that the warriors are blocking 50% of the vehicle from the los of the carnifex. with them being so close tot he carnifex, they probably block 50% of it's model granting it cover from the vehicle, but due to how far away the vehicle was from them, it's unlikely it would get cover from the warriors. And this would work both ways, if your Warriors were close to the vehicle, closing in for an assault say, they would probably grant cover to the vehicle from the carnifex, but not vice versa, and the carnifex wouldn't get cover from the vehicle. I'd also would like to point out if the warriors were right in the middle of the field between the two, the likelyhood is neither the vehicle or carnifex would get cover from each other (assuming the scale is a long enough distance between the two... with your definition of the warriors 1-2" from the Carnifex in that original set up though, the Carnifex and Vehicle should be sufficiently far enough away from each other to cause the behavior I'm describing).

Now, there's no way I could tell you for certain without actually seeing the set up IRL and getting down and looking from the carnifex's point of view - I've seen in fairly close compact quarters my Zoanthropes actually block 50% of a Sniperfex's los to a far away vehicle (granted they are taller than warriors, and shaped differrently, but there could be other terrain abnormalities that could cause that).

On a perfectly flat piece of terrain, with no other intervening terrain or models, the los would likely be like your first drawing of the stick figures and van though: remember in 5th there's no more dealing with predefined height issues, everything is true line of sight - so it should function like it would in real life.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 18:21   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezalhualixtlan
It's really unlikely in the setup of your original scenario in the first post that the warriors are blocking 50% of the vehicle from the los of the carnifex. with them being so close tot he carnifex, they probably block 50% of it's model granting it cover from the vehicle, but due to how far away the vehicle was from them, it's unlikely it would get cover from the warriors. And this would work both ways, if your Warriors were close to the vehicle, closing in for an assault say, they would probably grant cover to the vehicle from the carnifex, but not vice versa, and the carnifex wouldn't get cover from the vehicle. I'd also would like to point out if the warriors were right in the middle of the field between the two, the likelyhood is neither the vehicle or carnifex would get cover from each other (assuming the scale is a long enough distance between the two... with your definition of the warriors 1-2" from the Carnifex in that original set up though, the Carnifex and Vehicle should be sufficiently far enough away from each other to cause the behavior I'm describing).

Now, there's no way I could tell you for certain without actually seeing the set up IRL and getting down and looking from the carnifex's point of view - I've seen in fairly close compact quarters my Zoanthropes actually block 50% of a Sniperfex's los to a far away vehicle (granted they are taller than warriors, and shaped differrently, but there could be other terrain abnormalities that could cause that).

On a perfectly flat piece of terrain, with no other intervening terrain or models, the los would likely be like your first drawing of the stick figures and van though: remember in 5th there's no more dealing with predefined height issues, everything is true line of sight - so it should function like it would in real life.
I agree completely with your post.

@ Arguleon-veq - Only vehicles need to draw LOS from the weapon. Monstrous Creatures are the same as any other model they draw LOS from their eyes and the gun is only there for decor. You could model the gun towards the sky or backwards and still be able to shoot it. So wether or not the gun is blocked by the warriors is irrelevant, what matters are the fex's eyes.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 18:27   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

You normally use Model's-Eye View. In a real game, you would just put your head down by the Carnifex's head and see what it can see, keeping in mind that you have to see over the Tyranid Warriors rather than through the spaces in between them.

In Vassal, the vehicle should get the cover save. You can not use model's eye view, so you should give your opponent the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 19:00   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
You normally use Model's-Eye View. In a real game, you would just put your head down by the Carnifex's head and see what it can see, keeping in mind that you have to see over the Tyranid Warriors rather than through the spaces in between them.

In Vassal, the vehicle should get the cover save. You can not use model's eye view, so you should give your opponent the benefit of the doubt.
That's the problem I have with vassal. The current 5th edition rules are supposed to work like IRL, as far as LOS is concerned. However you can't tell heights in Vassal nor can you 'model' your guy to stand higher or to stand like your own models.

So if we go and use things the way you suggested, everything would always give a cover save to everything else. Even gaunts sitting infront of a zoanthrope, because we are completely ignoring the IRL properties and only looking at what's on the board. That's why I thought it was an interesting concept to bring up because to some degree and to play the game the way it was meant to be played you have to assume certain things like 'Zoanthropes are always able to shoot over a gaunts head'

I would never claim that my carnifex gets a cover save from a line of grots standing infront of a battlewagon.

The fairest solution would be a 5+ save, IMO.
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Old 17 Oct 2008, 19:05   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Monstrous Creatures and Line of sight.

Or do what they say in the book, if a cover save is up in the air, just increase the number needed for a save by one. So its 5+ instead of a 4+.
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