Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

'Grey Area' Question
Reply
Old 14 Oct 2008, 01:44   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 943
Default 'Grey Area' Question

Alright, some bad wording on GW's part has led to a rules question. It has to do with multiple combats.

Ok, so... Page 41 of the itsy bitsy book, the "Multiple Combats" section, under "Attacking"...

"Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

One of the sensible redshirts (and one who actually knows the rules decently well) kind of glossed over the rule. In my case, my Command Squad was locked in combat with a unit of Nobz with a Warboss in it. I had a pair of tactical squads charge in, and I informed my opponent that he must direct all of his attacks toward the Command Squad, because it was already locked in combat. He asked why, and I informed him 'because it's in the rules and doesn't make sense'. Well, the Redshirt overheard just that bit, and came by to ask what didn't make sense. I informed him of that little bit about the rules, and he flat-out told me I was wrong.

So, a couple moments of argument and he walks over to grab the open copy of the rulebook. I tell him where the section is, he reads over it, and tries to tell me once more that I am wrong. He concedes that the Nobz may only attack my Command Squad, but the Warboss (who was striking at initiative 1 due to having a Power Klaw) would get to choose his attacks, both because he was an independent character and because he was technically not locked in combat when it was his turn to attack. Well, technically he's locked with the unit as soon as all the chargers are moved into place, but he insists that it's counted from when the model attacks.

In the end, I got fed up and just let the Warboss attack. It made no difference to the outcome of the game itself, but I maintain that because the rules are nonsensical, a unit cannot attack any unit that charged it that round if it is already engaged in close combat. However, I want a general concensus so that I feel as though I have some solid ground to stand on when I argue my view of the rules. I mean, the rule is as clear as day to me, but some choppy wording could lead to discrepancy. Also, I'd feel bad pushing rules on people if they weren't correct.
__________________
The soulless sentience is the enemy of all.

Mournus Skitarii 3rd Legion, the Will of Mourn

Kaffl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 01:56   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 930
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

This is fixed in the new FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...k_Oct_2008.pdf

For those of you who don't want to click linky:

Quote:
Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one enemy unit, must attack that unit.
__________________


"In the nightmare future of the far future there is only war." - Apocalypse
O Y Montyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 01:59   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

Unfortunately, you are wrong in this interpretation. The charging in happens prior to beginning of combat(Admittedly, the phases are not so clear as in fantasy, but once blows are struck in a combat, you can no longer charge more folks in to help out).

So, the rule is just there to point out that you can't move around models already in combat willy nilly to strike others. Lets take the following as an example.

yxxxxyy
yxxxxyy
yxxxxyy

Now, the rightmost members of squad x are only in combat with the rightmost Y squad, and thus, can only hit them. Ditto on the left. Its basically just a common sense summary of something that happens due to a number of existing rules. Basically, all determining of who can hit who is, in fifth ed, done immediately before ANY blows are struck, and are valid for the entire combat round.

If we were going to take it the way you insist, it gets rather silly, especially when independant characters are involved. Note that it says "with just one", not "you may only attack units you were already engaged with", meaning the rule becomes irrelevant if it was a multiple combat prior to the charge. This is all kinds of sticky if you count independant chars as seperate units(and they are seperate targets in CC).
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 02:51   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,399
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

I've used this to my advantage once: My squad of ork Boyz had charged 10 Space Marines. Combat Continued in my next turn and I charged in with a Killa Khan. My opponent responded by charing a second another 10 SM in on the CC and placed his Sgt with a Power Sword in on my Killa Khan. This meant that since his Sgt was not in base to base with any of the Orks that he could only attack the Killa Khan...but he could even effect the Killa Khan.
Hyena031 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 14:36   #5 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 16,024
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena031
I've used this to my advantage once: My squad of ork Boyz had charged 10 Space Marines. Combat Continued in my next turn and I charged in with a Killa Khan. My opponent responded by charing a second another 10 SM in on the CC and placed his Sgt with a Power Sword in on my Killa Khan. This meant that since his Sgt was not in base to base with any of the Orks that he could only attack the Killa Khan...but he could even effect the Killa Khan.
But that's also a double edged sword, had the Sergeant had a power fist/meltabombs, the shoe would of been on the other foot
FTyross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 19:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 943
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

Hmm... GW picked a rather roundabout way of stating a very simple rule. I had to go through and look up other parts of other rules in order to piece that rule together. As it stands, I have decided that not only can the design team not write (and it was written by a decent team at that!), but the rule is clearly meant to confuse players who expect to see little change from 4th edition and are looking to see if there are strange and obscure rules changes. It does nothing but make my head hurt. THe other thing I have decided is that due to the order of steps in the phase, the rule is entirely unnecessary and just uses up space. Basically all the rule says is that a model can only fight a combat that it is engaged in. I mean really, was there even a reason to write that in?

So it turns out I was wrong. Thanks Tyndmyr, you really helped clear that up.
__________________
The soulless sentience is the enemy of all.

Mournus Skitarii 3rd Legion, the Will of Mourn

Kaffl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 22:09   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

I'll agree, it's a terribly written rule. I sometimes think they should have relatively new players read the rule, then tell them what it means. If most of them get it wrong, write it again.
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 23:17   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 36
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

On a related question, if a model is in base contact with a unit at the start of combat and that unit is eliminated before that model gets to roll, can he attack another unit (if he is within 2" of another model attacking that unit)?

Geoff
geoffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Oct 2008, 23:19   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,130
Default Re: 'Grey Area' Question

If he's not in base contact with another unit, no. Who he can hit is determined at the beginning of combat. A bit awkward, sure, but it tends not to come up a ton.

Now, if he was in base contact with multiple units, sure, he can hit whichever he likes.
__________________
Latest Project: Game Design Forums. Register now to get a low user ID, or reserve a forum for your own project.

My various opinions and tacticas, in article form: Ad clicks always appreciated.

Latest article topic: Video game design

Best free webhost Ive found yet: http://www.ultrawebsitehosting.com/2353.html
Tyndmyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question about intervening terrain, area terrain and cover saves? chicop76 General 40K 25 31 May 2010 23:04
Skimmers landing in Area Terrain question Rudog General 40K 2 15 Oct 2009 20:32
Area Terrain Question karnij7877 General 40K 11 16 Aug 2007 16:28
Grey Area Aquila_XV8 Tau 23 24 Jan 2007 21:29
Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question) Gramlin General 40K 15 11 Oct 2006 15:23