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How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 00:08   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

So, I posted in the space marines forum a little rules nugget about the Dark Angels that was brought to my attention. You can see the whole thing here: http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=72466.0

Basically it allows you to use a loophole in the Dark Angels codex that allows you to take units that normally wouldn't be aloud to score to do so...

I wouldn't advocate doing this unless playing in a very cut throat environment, however, I have done some things in the past that I wouldn't do just to teach people a lesson (the nid player facing a heavy bolter heavy marine list, a min/max marine list facing a farsight list with waaayyyy too many plasmas, etc...). And I also plan on exploiting this rule until GW admits they are wrong and fix it, but only in said cut throat environments.

So, the question is: How far have you gone to teach someone a lesson?
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 00:29   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

I feel that if you need to teach someone a lesson, then perhaps your the one who needs to learn the lesson of: "Don't play with this guy"

I can understand there is a certain degree of Cut throated-ness floating around in the 40K world, just as there is in any gaming environment. However, should we stoop this low? Never. Aspire to be the bigger player, resolve issues in a mature manner rather than Powergaming because he's powergaming.

Example: here in my local gaming scene we have a monthly 40K tournament. There is always a kid there who brings the cheesiest list he can bring, Now, I can combat any of these lists with one of my own, and I generally know what he's going to play before the tournament thanks to the Store owner constantly trying to get me to come beat him down, but I will not stoop that low. I come to a tournament setting ALWAYS with the idea of a Rounded, tactically sound army that is an "all comers" list. Is it fair to the other 2 players I play that day that I bring a cheese list and beat them into the ground as well, just because I had to stoop that low to beat down another player? No. Even outside the tournaments I will never bring that type of list to play anyone, The reason being I have proved to this kid that Powergaming in 40K doesn't make it funner, just makes you feel better by stomping your opponents. And even a well rounded list can defeat cheese.

I have read your loophole post and I disagree with you on your points, and that is a type behaviour that teaches nobody a lesson, and will probably make you look like a dick at tournaments.

This is all personal preference of course.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 01:39   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

I believe in GKTerminator's comment that the best way to "teach someone a lesson" is to simply stop playing with them. Most players at my shop are decent but there are a few that annoy me. Two types might deserve some sort of retribution.

1) False Noob (from Yriel's definitions). This player "pretends" not to know the rules and plays off this "ignorance" to gain advantages. This player may indeed not know the rules - but they should because they're not a true noob. Therefore, proper retribution for this type of player is to simply force them to abide by the rules. It takes some attentiveness on your behalf. But forcing them to learn the rules and play by them is often punishment enough...and might actually forge them into a decent player.

2) Noob! This is the player who is simply the best - he is unbeatable, he is a rules / fluff expert, he is the greatest player to every paint a miniature. In my shop, this player proclaims that he doesn't need to know what enemy armies do because he'll just kill them no matter what. So he doesn't understand any rules other than his pet army. When I play this player again - it will be with a clockwork tactical plan and a flawless approach. I will be systematically dismember his army and use every single trick in my book. There will be no "tactical experimentation" which so often forces me into a draw. Instead, I will decimate him. But there will not be powergaming, list tailoring or rules exploitation. That would only give him an excuse for his loss. It will be due to simple, unbridled, tactical superiority.

Hope this helps,
Em
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 01:40   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

You realize that 99% of the time I play Death Wing? And that when I do play another army other than Death Wing (pure by the way) that it is almost always a fluffy army?

That wasn't the question, the question was have you ever tried to teach someone a lesson. You answered in the negative, good for you.

I, most of the time don't. I have in the 10+ years I've been playing 40k only done it around 4 times. Once was because we were tired of the nid player always bringing tournament quality armies to casual games. Once was to teach a Black Templar player that he can't rely entirely on close combat... especially if hes facing a massively shooty army. Once as mentioned to teach a min/maxer that 6 man las/plas squads weren't the end-all be-all. Each of those times were after much soul searching, questioning fellow gamers and discussing with our group, including those players being taught the lesson (generally they assumed that they would win and would agree).
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 02:59   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

Yea Howloutloud I really don't see the justification for that, nor would I ever advocate using it if it were true, no matter what environment your in its not good to lower yourself to such a level in order to win. The use of a rules twist of such magnitude would just be grossly over the top. You can teach people a lesson without needing such a measure.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 09:03   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

Yeah, I'd never even consider that. I can also say with complete confidence that no one in my gaming group would, either, tournament or not. Something like that would be brought up, joked about, referenced during a million friendly games as a joke, and then forgotten. I don't understand how you can even consider it.

First of all, it'll never work. The judge'll never let it through.

Second, if it did, you're 'teaching a lesson' by making a bunch of other tournament goers miserable.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 09:32   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

I will not stoop down to those players who will use every damn loophole that is not even possible to win the game at all cost. But instead, I will play a battle of the mind. One of the first things I will do is basically just snipe their most prized units (Units that they boast would obliterate my army, will pawn my basic troopers, etc) to hell and back, and generally annoy the hell out of the player with superior maneuver and firepower in a fair and just manner.

But nevertheless, I will always hold back from obliterating the player, and instead let him know in his heart that if it were not for me holding back, he would be obliterated to pieces. I will, after the game, tell him of his cheating/powergaming tricks that he tried to use against me but failed, and also which units are meant to be dead if I played seriously, and how I would entangle his units deeper into a realm of despair and pain. This often makes the player feels that he is saved by the mercy of a superior player, and also make him realize that doing things such as cheating is not the right way to go.And I will always tell the player to just play fair and just, in a fun manner and stick with it. I do not mind competitive lists, mind you, but cheating lists are a no-no for me.

As for the newbies, I will teach them in a precise and progressive stage so that they know the game inside out, and also instinctively. This most often than not make them into responsible players, who know how to balance between playing fairly and also to enhance their playing.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 10:26   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

Newbies to the game are like raw clay - they need to be shaped and helped. I've watched experienced players wipe a newb back to the stone age, which is disgusting. They need to be helped, because they are the next generation of players, for when we are all old and gone.

Noobs, I don't really play. Don't play much anyway, but when I hear or see someone who is a total noob, I have no interest in playing them.

I don't like the idea of sinking to their level though, its much better to beat them properly than by using their own way against them.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 11:49   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

Alright, then apparently its a general consensus that you all are too good to stoop to this particular level...

Thats fine. Like I said before, its a rare occurence for me and my gaming group, and we make sure that all parties are aware of what is happening. At the same time, after those games were over I would sit down with the person, discuss tactics and what went wrong. Give them a little pep talk about things that they did right or any ingenious ideas that they might have...

Teaching someone a lesson isn't always about humiliating them, just sometimes you have to break someone of their bad habits before you can teach them some good ones.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 14:14   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: How far would you be willing to go to teach someone a lesson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Alright, then apparently its a general consensus that you all are too good to stoop to this particular level...
Wha-what? :sadnshocked: Wait a minute.

Quote:
Teaching someone a lesson isn't always about humiliating them, just sometimes you have to break someone of their bad habits before you can teach them some good ones.
You asked: "How far have you gone to teach someone a lesson?" You asked this question in the context of an obviously cheesed tactic for Space Marines.

Your question was not "How have you helped people break bad habits?" or "How do you deal with obnoxious gamers at your store?". Your question was essentially - "how cheesy would you be willing to be to beat someone into the ground in order to teach them a lesson?".

If you don't believe me, re-read your topic title, your opening post, your link, your words like "cut throat environment".

Claiming that we're not willing to "stoop to this particular level" is crazy. You act like we're being all "high and mighty" about our responses. You asked a question - you got answers - some damn fine answers if you ask me. Now, you can take it or leave it at that. People disagree with you. Such is life. But that's no reason to get testy over it.

Cheers,
Em
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