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Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?
View Poll Results: Do Vehicle Gun Drones give up Kill Points in Annihilation?
Yes. They count as independent units. 8 24.24%
Yes, but I don't agree with the codex. 8 24.24%
Neutral, I require an FAQ to believe it 4 12.12%
No. I don't think they should, even though the codex disagrees with me. 5 15.15%
No, it doesn't seem right. 8 24.24%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 18 Sep 2008, 08:06   #1 (permalink)
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Default Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

Hey guys i just had a game vs Tau and it was an annihilation mission w/spearhead deployment, and I came across something interesting. Because in annihilation every unit gives up a kill point. The Tau vehicles that have gun drones give up 2 kill points?! When I destroyed the vehicle the gun drone rules for tau vehicles state that they are treated as passengers, so they disembark and act as a gun drone squadron. It also says that they may disembark during the tau player's movement phase and count as an independent unit that counts as a gun squadron. This is all in page 30 of the Tau codex, and the Tau FAQ says nothing about them not counting as a separate unit for kill point purposes.

During the game this wasn't an issue of big importance I was going to win regardless. but for future reference I pointed out that if they are an independent unit that they do in fact give up a kill point if killed. My friend at first claimed that no, they don't count as a unit they count as being part of the vehicle unit but upon checking the codex and reading that it clearly states they are independent units from the vehicle once disembarked, it was obvious to me that they do infact give up kill points separate from the kill points given by the vehicle they come aboard in.

So what do the rest of you say? Page 30 of the Tau Codex is where you want to look to read the rules on vehicle equipped Gun Drones. In the game we played Nids vs Tau, here are our lists. as you can see he had 2 devilfishes which were the ones who gave up gun drones once destroyed.


This was my list:
HQ:
1 Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Winged; Twin-linked Devourer (x2); Warp Field

1 Hive Tyrant
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons (x1); Venom Cannon;

Elite:
3 Carnifex
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Flesh Hooks; Twin-linked Devourer (x2)


Troops:
40 Gaunt Brood
Spinefists

Fast Attack:
12 Gargoyles

3 Ravener
Rending Claws; Scything Talons (x1)

Heavy Support:
1 Carnifex
Acid Maw; Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton; Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Regenerate; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Tail Weapon - Scythe; Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons (x1); Venom Cannon

2 Carnifex
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Reinforced Chitin; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

Total Roster Cost: 1850

and my opponent's list was:
HQ:
1 Commander Shas'el
Fusion Blaster; Hard-wired Target Lock; Crisis Bodyguard; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
2 Crisis Bodyguard
Fusion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array

Elite:
5 Stealthsuits
Burst Cannon (x5)
1 Team Leader
Bonding Knife; Burst Cannon

1 Crisis Battlesuit
Team Leader; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
2 Crisis Battlesuit
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Troops:
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad
Add Kroot Hounds; Kroot Rifle (x10)
2 Kroot Hounds @ [12] Pts

9 Fire Warrior
Pulse Rifle (x9)

9 Fire Warrior
Pulse Rifle (x9)

8 Fire Warrior
Pulse Rifle (x8)

1 Devilfish
Burst Cannon; Gun Drones; Landing Gear
2 Gun Drones

9 Fire Warrior
Pulse Rifle (x9)

Fast Attack:
5 Pathfinder
Markerlight (x3); Pulse Carbine (x3); Rail Rifle and Target Lock (x2)

1 Devilfish
Burst Cannon; Gun Drones; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon
2 Gun Drones
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

Heavy Support:
2 Hammerhead Gunships
Railgun; Seeker Missle (x2); Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Targeting Array

1 Hammerhead Gunship
Railgun; Seeker Missle (x2); Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Targeting Array


Total Roster Cost: 1849
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 08:14   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

RAW suggests that they do, which is pants. I wont be disengaging my drones in kill point games until we get some sort of FAQ about it. Hopefully the question will be answered in the GT rules pack before I go this year.

For similar reasons I will not be taking Biovores or spore mines anymore, if I miss I give away an easy kill point.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 08:39   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

Well he didn't disengage I blew up his tanks and the drones are forced to come out and form a squadron since they are passengers on the vehicle.

Also note they are always 'passengers' on the vehicle they do not benefit from market lights and such. They pretty much follow all the standard rules for passengers aboard a vehicle and when they disembark or are forced to disembark they form their own independent gun squadron. Further suggesting that yes they would give up kill points like any other passengers aboard a vehicle.

And yeah the biovores are at a dissadvantage firing those spore mines and giving up points when they miss.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 16:53   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

OK, I called Jeff the Rulz Guy at the GW hotline because this subject has come up several times before. He said that GW has not taken a specific position on dismounted drones and kill points. Then he said that there is a good argument for both 1 and 2 KPs but that he believes that since the 5th Ed Tau FAQ still contains a reference to dismounted drones not effecting the victory points a vehicle gives up, that the intent is that dismounted drones should not grant additional kill points.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 18:56   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
OK, I called Jeff the Rulz Guy at the GW hotline because this subject has come up several times before. He said that GW has not taken a specific position on dismounted drones and kill points. Then he said that there is a good argument for both 1 and 2 KPs but that he believes that since the 5th Ed Tau FAQ still contains a reference to dismounted drones not effecting the victory points a vehicle gives up, that the intent is that dismounted drones should not grant additional kill points.
sounds to me like that is simply wishful thinking. since he himself isn't sure and is not actually quoting the ruling but rather telling you his 'opinion' on how it should be.

i do think a big FAQ for all such units should be released, maybe biovores would be used again because if you think you have it bad with gun drones, imagine giving up kill points every time ur shot scatters and hits nothing. Potentially giving 5+ kill points if you miss every shot.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 19:02   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

You'll get no argument from me on the fact that GW screwed the pooch when they set up the kill points system. It just feels like they didn't play test it thoroughly enough. There are too many holes in the system.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 19:59   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
You'll get no argument from me on the fact that GW screwed the pooch when they set up the kill points system. It just feels like they didn't play test it thoroughly enough. There are too many holes in the system.
oh definetly, it did sound like a good idea but apparently they forgot the extensive diversity of units in 40k or simply didnt feel like play testing everything.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 23:57   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

Yeah about that..... having Imperial guard massed infantry doesn't make much sense anymore...

I think that gun drones should count as kill points if their vehicle is destroyed as well, that's where you get them from anyway. (unless you buy a seperate squadron)
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 00:59   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

I have to severely agree about the non-functionality of Kill Points as presented in the rule book. GW themselves didn't even use it for their 'ard Boyz tournament. To give a somewhat extreme (thought true) example, I play a fair number of 1000pt games against a deathwing player. As such, he generally has 4 kill points on the board (Leader, 3 Terminator squads). I, on the other hand, playing Tau, tend to have 6-8 kill points on the board. Which means if we both destroy half the opponents army (assuming that he doesn't hide any last Terminator standing), I've only got 2 kill points, and he has 3 or 4. If we get closer to total annihilation (as is known to happen) He has at least 4 kill points, a value I couldn't even reach without totally wiping out his army. The current kill point system dramatically favors fewer, more expensive units.

However, back to the exact point at hand. I would point out that the gun drones are a "vehicle upgrade" making them like a weapon, or members of a unit with the vehicle. The description states they "Function as a drone squadron" not that they are a drone squadron. They are, infact, part of the tank. One could actually argue that one should not get the kill points for the vehicle until the drones are destroyed.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 03:17   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nids vs Tau 1850. Gun Drones give kill points? yes or no?

the counter argument would be that the codex states Drones form a separate unit from the transport. Since kill points are given for each destroyed unit, it would make sense that vehicle mounted drones would give up an additional killpoint as soon as they form a separate unit.

imo the fact that it's a vehicle upgrade doesn't weigh up to the drones forming a separate independent unit (and thus meeting the kill point criteria)
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