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True Line of Sight.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 04:56   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default True Line of Sight.

Ok. I'll refrain from the remarks I would like to say about this rule.

Ok I'm gonna give a few examples why it's flawed. The size 1-3 terrain at first seemed silly but overall I kinda liked that way a lot more than now.

1. Ok lets for example say you liked the forge world Avator of Khaine. The model looks stunning and awesome at the same time. It's legal to play since it's the same rules and you paid 4x more money buying this guy over the games workshop avatar.

Unfortunately the forge world models stand a lot taller than the games workshop ones. Which means a lot easier to see due to true line of sight. If you had the regular avatar behind a landraider than you wouldn't be able to shoot him but if was a forge world model than you can see him and fire away.

2. Lets say I field the great unclean one forge world model. It's a lot bigger than the games workshop one. Here is where it helps you cause of his size you can hide almost anything behind him and you can't shoot them cause you're using the bigger model.

3. Well my old carnifex models I model them to be standing up. In doing this the model is a lot taller and easier to shoot due to this. If I modeled him the correct way he could hide behind certain terrain and some tanks.

4. Well lets say I model a wraithlord kneeling, sitting or even in the prone postion lying down. Modeling the model this way is adventages due to you being able to hide it behind more things.

5. This is what will be my favorite tactic exploiting the new line of sight rule.

You take 10 wraithguard with conceal and fortune them. Not an uheard of combo and they can only might block line of sight to a small squad behind them.

This is where it gets good. You take a 4"x6" plastic card and glue it to their back. But don't forget to paint it like a banner so it won't be that obvious. Than line them up in a big line and march them down the field.

The barrier that they would have will block line of sight to your army and will block you too. But that's why you have bikes and warp spiders behind them. They can jump the wall shoot and jump back over doing the assault phase.

6. You will now start seeing terrain with no windows and doors. Basically just walls.


Anyway I could go on and on. Like kroot and catchans got jacked on due to field craft. But hey they get a +3 cover save in woods now. But sadly why would you field woods now.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 05:26   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

First off you have a few flaws and a few things misconcived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
1. Ok lets for example say you liked the forge world Avator of Khaine. The model looks stunning and awesome at the same time. It's legal to play since it's the same rules and you paid 4x more money buying this guy over the games workshop avatar.

Unfortunately the forge world models stand a lot taller than the games workshop ones. Which means a lot easier to see due to true line of sight. If you had the regular avatar behind a landraider than you wouldn't be able to shoot him but if was a forge world model than you can see him and fire away.

2. Lets say I field the great unclean one forge world model. It's a lot bigger than the games workshop one. Here is where it helps you cause of his size you can hide almost anything behind him and you can't shoot them cause you're using the bigger model.
This is where the first issue I have comes in. Games workshop does not play test, nor do they much care to write rules to include stuff from Forgeworld. The rules for the game are based on general models that 90% of Games have. It does seem to penalize you for playing with that Uber spiffy looking model, or penalizing your opponent, but in the idea of a general fairness those players who use different models will have to deal while the majority of us use the normal GW models that don't cost us an arm, a leg, and our firstborn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76

3. Well my old carnifex models I model them to be standing up. In doing this the model is a lot taller and easier to shoot due to this. If I modeled him the correct way he could hide behind certain terrain and some tanks.

4. Well lets say I model a wraithlord kneeling, sitting or even in the prone postion lying down. Modeling the model this way is adventages due to you being able to hide it behind more things.
THIS is not how it works, it even says in the rules that models can be expected to be prone/kneeling ect. Use a roughly equivalent sized model (or the same model not laying down ect) to check the LoS. So you can't lay your Lord down and expect him to hide behind bushes. Furthermore this same ideal applies to your Carnifex. Just because his head sticks up because you have him Slam dunking a marine into a Spawning pool you built onto his base doesn't mean he gets to take a railgun to the face, it means you need to work out the true height and LoS of the model from a non-posed standpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76

5. This is what will be my favorite tactic exploiting the new line of sight rule.

You take 10 wraithguard with conceal and fortune them. Not an uheard of combo and they can only might block line of sight to a small squad behind them.

This is where it gets good. You take a 4"x6" plastic card and glue it to their back. But don't forget to paint it like a banner so it won't be that obvious. Than line them up in a big line and march them down the field.

The barrier that they would have will block line of sight to your army and will block you too. But that's why you have bikes and warp spiders behind them. They can jump the wall shoot and jump back over doing the assault phase.
This tatic would get you thrown from our Gamestore if you tried to enforce it. First off a Banner is aestetic, and simply part of a squad, does not block line of sight, and you cannot model them 234535 feet high to cover your army. The blocking portion of a model is the head/torso portion, arms, and legs. Which means those Dire avenger Banners don't protect the farseer behind, but the squad does, and if some Scouts were able to see the farseer fully behind the enemy without drawing thorough their bodies then the farseer would be sniper food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
6. You will now start seeing terrain with no windows and doors. Basically just walls.
This is possible but who cares? Really? I played a GT game on a table with nothing but rocks, my Eldar had NO cover at all. and my opponent was Deathwing and didn't even give a shit. It'll be no fun if your buddies just go about making solid buildings and such....shame you guys are that distraught about getting shot at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Anyway I could go on and on. Like kroot and catchans got jacked on due to field craft. But hey they get a +3 cover save in woods now. But sadly why would you field woods now.
Yup, they took a hit. But hell Grey knights took a hit a while back when Minor powers were removed, and Dark eldar have an Ancient Codex....oh well. Some rules get outdated as new Big rulebooks come out, we make due and find new ways to use them. 3+ cover for Kroot is rather awsome if you ask me..better than no save at all? Woods are still fun thematically and now players can get a save and shoot back...no longer will scouts get deployed too far into terrain. Now it's a matter of tatics to keep from giving your opponent a cover save....gogo 2.5 inches of Cover....blah blah.

So to recap....Research things before you rant. And if you really don't like the game because someone's land raider shields his Commander but your Carnifex can get shot at now....then just stop playing, Complaining about a rule set won't change it, and Frankly who really cares...the game still plays 90% the same...you still move, still shoot, still take handfuls of models off the table because you field guardians who only have a 5+ sa....(wait thats just me I think)...

In the end, crying over a "flaw" where imho it has become a bit more representative makes sense. Now I can actually shoot the one guy in the window while his buddy who is smart and hangs out behind the pillar is safe...


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Old 18 Sep 2008, 05:56   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

Chill out man, he's just venting.


And though many of his examples are flawed it doesn't mean TLOS isn't.

Area terrain and level 1-3 stuff was fine before.
The reason? Because the turns are meant to be abstractions of time, your army is not doing a battle in 30 mins (most of the time).

TLOS removes many of the time issues, turning the 'spot and shoot' playstyle into a fps type of environment. These superfast vehicles and soldiers and bikes etc. all stand still while that little shot is going on.

The whole reason for area terrain was because issues like a rocket travelling through two sets of woods and into a small window of a building are highly improbable of ever happening.


And just because one person didn't get to shoot the super killy big beast, doesn't mean their getting penalized. The other player who purchased the monster would be because he wanted a little variety in his army.
GW is doing their damnedest to stifle creativity, under a veneer of "updating/simplfying".
Since when have bases become that big of a problem that they had to write rules against anything but their own bases that cane with the model?!

TLOS has shaken the playing environment as well. Many units who were designed to live longer with cover between them and the enemy were neglected in the updates worth of rules.

TLOS restricts certain tactics/traps that could be done before now that cover is superfluous, traps can be shot well before they're sprung.

Now, we can avoid the terrain problems by making our own. I do not know about the rest of the gamers playing, but I take a certain pride in being able to utilize a battle field somewhat decently without having to resort to bringing my own boring blocks of terrain just because I dislike the TLOS rules.

And the final kicker, Were TLOS really meant to bring realism to the game then it would have beenpaired back up with Overwatch! As it stands now, they have taken the waiting/thinking out of the shooting game and inserted your standard mindless first person shooter state-of-being.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 08:06   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
5. This is what will be my favorite tactic exploiting the new line of sight rule.

You take 10 wraithguard with conceal and fortune them. Not an uheard of combo and they can only might block line of sight to a small squad behind them.

This is where it gets good. You take a 4"x6" plastic card and glue it to their back. But don't forget to paint it like a banner so it won't be that obvious. Than line them up in a big line and march them down the field.

The barrier that they would have will block line of sight to your army and will block you too. But that's why you have bikes and warp spiders behind them. They can jump the wall shoot and jump back over doing the assault phase.

6. You will now start seeing terrain with no windows and doors. Basically just walls.


Anyway I could go on and on. Like kroot and catchans got jacked on due to field craft. But hey they get a +3 cover save in woods now. But sadly why would you field woods now.
Rules say you can not bring your terrain along with you. End of story. So that means even if you are comprised of walls, you are just like a person who is not behind the wall. The modelling of cover is just modelling.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 09:15   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKTerminator
THIS is not how it works, it even says in the rules that models can be expected to be prone/kneeling ect. Use a roughly equivalent sized model (or the same model not laying down ect) to check the LoS. So you can't lay your Lord down and expect him to hide behind bushes. Furthermore this same ideal applies to your Carnifex. Just because his head sticks up because you have him Slam dunking a marine into a Spawning pool you built onto his base doesn't mean he gets to take a railgun to the face, it means you need to work out the true height and LoS of the model from a non-posed standpoint.
I saw a couple guys on Warseer saying that this was cheating, and you have to measure to the model, not where the model is "supposed" to be.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 09:36   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

First off, My apologies if I sounded a bit harsh. I don't mind a good rant, but make it intelligent and sensible. I can understand some of the frustrations, but some of the thoughts outlined here are a bit weak.

Next off @Sidstyler:
Guys on Warseer are not the guys who own or make the game, write the rules or any of that, the merely interperate this to be what they want. Read the rulebook, Not posts made by others about a rule.

When I get home I'll pull out my rulebook and give some reference material. Measuring to where a model is, when laying down or some such BS does not work properly, it's a cheesy way to bend rules in your favor.

Again Sorry to sound harsh, I'm very interested in seeing what constructiveness can come from this discussion.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 16:36   #7 (permalink)
77
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

chicop, you seem to be advocating for players that would field an army that looks like this to take "tactical advantage" of the TLoS rule:




Players that try to leverage the rules in the way that you are describing are breaking the most important rule and ruin the game for everyone.

The only response to this is "dreadsock."
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 17:57   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

I actually prefer TLOS. I very much disliked the terrain-sizing thing... it involved going through a bunch of setup to decide what everything was at the beginning the game, and, in cases such as Crisis suits (which technically counted as size 1), it just didn't work. Our group used TLOS most of the time anyway.

The example that someone gave about a rocket going through two forests and a window... if the forests are modelled properly, and the window really is small, you certainly wouldn't be able to see the 50% of the model that's required to shoot at it.

TLOS will also encourage people to stop being lazy with terrain... huge buildings and realistically-sized hills will (hopefully) abound.

Finally, you are, in fact, supposed to measure from where the model is 'supposed to be,' according to the local redshirts. Doing the banner thing, or using models such as the ones in 77's post, is cheating. The Avatar, by the way, is a monstrous creature, and the Forge World one is more accurately sized.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 20:26   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKTerminator
Guys on Warseer are not the guys who own or make the game, write the rules or any of that, the merely interperate this to be what they want. Read the rulebook, Not posts made by others about a rule.
First off, nowhere did I say that I agreed with that interpretation, nor do I listen to guys on Warseer instead of the rulebook. :

BUT, from what I can tell there is no rule in the rulebook that states what you claim, that you must measure to where the model is "supposed" to be and not where the model is actually modelled, which would explain the calls of "cheating" for people who do that. In fact the only thing I can find is the beginning when talking about bases, and that's only for scenic bases and it only calls for you to come to an agreement before the game about whether or not the model should be used at all.

If you could give me a page number where it says "no kneeling wraithlords", then fine, but I only bring it up because in this instance I think the guys from Warseer might actually have a point. I've got my rulebook right here though and I can't find it.

Quote:
Finally, you are, in fact, supposed to measure from where the model is 'supposed to be,' according to the local redshirts.
So I get called out for listening to Warseer and you guys are going to redshirts? A redshirt has no clue what they're talking about, and if I do recall correctly, they also don't own the game or had any part in making it, so why should I listen to them over anyone else?

Show me in the rulebook where it says you must measure where the model is "supposed" to be. Why does it say to draw LOS from the models eyes if you're claiming that LOS must be drawn from thin air, or wherever you personally feel the eyes should be?

I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here, this isn't how I play the game at all, but I feel a little annoyed when people are referencing rules that, as far as I'm concerned, don't exist, and start citing redshirts as their sources.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 20:42   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: True Line of Sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidstyler


So I get called out for listening to Warseer and you guys are going to redshirts? A redshirt has no clue what they're talking about, and if I do recall correctly, they also don't own the game or had any part in making it, so why should I listen to them over anyone else?

Show me in the rulebook where it says you must measure where the model is "supposed" to be. Why does it say to draw LOS from the models eyes if you're claiming that LOS must be drawn from thin air, or wherever you personally feel the eyes should be?

I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here, this isn't how I play the game at all, but I feel a little annoyed when people are referencing rules that, as far as I'm concerned, don't exist, and start citing redshirts as their sources.
I dunno where your redshirts are coming from, but the ones in my local stores have always seemed to be rather competent. Most of them are older (30 to 50 years old), not a bunch of collage kids who have no interest in the game. They've got a pretty tough exam that they have to pass to get the job, if I recall.

Pray tell, what exactly is the authority, if it's not redshirts?

It doesn't say that anywhere in the rulebook, I'm not claiming it does. However, it doesn't say that you can't throw a temper tantrum upon rolling three '1s' for armour saves, but this doesn't mean that it's an acceptable way to play. It's dead obvious that RAI doesn't let you get away with this (why would the rock spire your HQ is standing on move with him, hmm?), and the Redshirts have confirmed it.

You'd have to be a pretty pathetic player to try and loophole through this one... It's not a 'tactical advantage,' it's cheating.
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