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Shooting through units and vehicles
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 18:31   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Shooting through units and vehicles

OK simple question, I just can't find the answer in the rule book.

I know if you shoot through your own troops, or an opposing unit the squad getting shot at gets a cover save. At least this is for infantry type units, jumppacks and the like.

What about MC's, dreads, and vehicles? Does a tact squad in front of a Dev squad block the sight of the MC the Dev's are shooting enough that it gets a cover save?

I see it as shooting at MC's and Walkers does not give a cover save because of their massive size, but I have no back up for this line of thought. Am I correct, or would they get a cover save?

Page numbers would be great.

This is not about what the rules should be but about what the rule is.
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 19:46   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

Damn JBunny that is a good question. I've got the rule book with me, but as I'm only on my lunch break, I can't be sure the answer isn't listed elsewhere. But here goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBunny
OK simple question, I just can't find the answer in the rule book.

I know if you shoot through your own troops, or an opposing unit the squad getting shot at gets a cover save. At least this is for infantry type units, jumppacks and the like.

What about MC's, dreads, and vehicles? Does a tact squad in front of a Dev squad block the sight of the MC the Dev's are shooting enough that it gets a cover save?
In this situation I believe the unit shooting at the Monsterous Creature, Vehicle or Walker must utilize TLOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBunny
I see it as shooting at MC's and Walkers does not give a cover save because of their massive size, but I have no back up for this line of thought. Am I correct, or would they get a cover save?
Page 51 of the BRB for MC says that
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB
for a monsterous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. Ignore models that cannot harm the Monsterous Creature. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically conver a cover save to monsterous creatures - the 50% rule takes precedence
Furthermore, and for walkers I would assume this also applys
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB
Cover works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)
So, in your example, my Deamon Prince (an MC) would get a cover save from your Devestator squad if 50% of his body was covered by your intervening Tactical squad, or for that matter, anything else.

On a tangent...Shooting from a Monsterous Creature, Vehicle or Walker over intervening friendly models.

Walkers are on page 72, my italics
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB
Walkers are a very unusual type of vehicle
and so we must use the rules for vehicles shooting and LOS which are located on page 58.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB
Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models.
My opinion, then that if the weapons on the Mounsterous Creature or Walker draw LOS through intervening friendly models the cover save should be granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBunny
Page numbers would be great.

This is not about what the rules should be but about what the rule is.
Hope that helps!

Bocephus
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 20:50   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

I have to agree with Bocephus, utilize TLOS for the walkers and MCs. A good example would be a Wraith Lord.. they are lanky and tall thus you can draw a bead on the models behind them easy enough. I suppose the debate would be with a Demon Prince or something like that.

While I do not work for GWS I would like to recommend the Markerlight that you can purchase for about 10 USD, it comes in pretty handy and is not just a simple laser pointer.

On another note, skimmers are supposed to *ALWAYS* use their hover bases unless immobilized or destroyed, the ruling on that is at the bottom of page 71.
Since I personally do not like the bases since they break easy I just confirm a mutual 4+ cover save for units on each side of the skimmer since it could be on a 2in" peg.
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 21:20   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

The BOB also says that you can ignore friendly models though for LOS, I have to find the page though to give an exact directions to a page number.
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 22:19   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

It says the only exception to intervening models granting cover saves is for the unit that is firing. So in other words, even if the missile launcher is behind 6 of his squad members, no cover save is granted.

A seperate squad, whether friendly or enemy, is a different matter.
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 23:14   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bocephus
It says the only exception to intervening models granting cover saves is for the unit that is firing. So in other words, even if the missile launcher is behind 6 of his squad members, no cover save is granted.

A seperate squad, whether friendly or enemy, is a different matter.
That's probably what I was thinking of...Sometimes the rules get jumbly when your thinking over three rulesets.
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Old 06 Aug 2008, 15:03   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

Thanks Bocephus.

BTW are you Hank Williams Jr, or just a fan?
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Old 07 Aug 2008, 17:02   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBunny
Thanks Bocephus.

BTW are you Hank Williams Jr, or just a fan?
Ah, JBunny, I unfortunatly not Hank Jr. I am most definately a fan of the one of the greatest Outlaws there ever was. I named my Chaos Lord Bocephus in his honor, and to continue the theme each of my champions, and special characters for other Outlaw Country singers. I was considering the possibility of naming my predator the General Lee. ;D

Under Circus' tale of 9 gamers, I asked if anyone could guess my theme, and you did it with just the name of the HQ. I take it then, that you too are fan of the good ol' boys?

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Old 07 Aug 2008, 20:05   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

So is it a certain that Vehicles do not block LOS? Or is it only friendly vehicles do not block LOS but just confir a 4+ cover save?

I was under the assumption that only infantry/jump infantry would give a cover save and vehicles would be based on TLOS.
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Old 07 Aug 2008, 23:02   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Shooting through units and vehicles

No, I'm pretty sure all vehicles block LOS, if in actuality, they block LOS. You might have to get down to eye to eye with the model and its firing lane, but thats 5th edition.

If you can see though or under the vehicle then a 4+ save is granted. This would be the case for walkers, as you can see through their legs, or a skimmer, as you can see under it. And again, this would be regardless if the intervening vehicle is friendly or enemy.
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