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Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 13:50   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

I just got the new 5th ed BBB (big black book). And I was reading the bit about cover saves...

Ok, as far as shooting goes...

If my unit is IN area terrain (lets say Woods), they benefit from a cover save as long as more than half the unit is actually in or behind the woods?

Now - if they are firing out of the woods - is the same true? Lets say that there's an enemy unit in clear terrain about 8" in front of a wooded area. My units are in the wooded area. I have 9 models in my unit... 5 models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain.

The enemy unit gets no cover save, Right?

But if only 4 of my models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain, and the other 5 models have to fire through more than 2" of wooded terrain, then the enemy unit would benefit from a cover save?

What about assaults? How would area terrain work then? Lets say my unit is in the same woods and get assaulted. How much of the unit has to be occupying the area terrain to be counted as being in cover? If the unit is behind the area terrain, can they be spotted? Can they be assaulted?

Just some sort of basic concept - or reference pages in the rules - I'm not asking for quoted paragraphs - just some overview to help me get my head around this...

Thanks...
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 14:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
I just got the new 5th ed BBB (big black book). And I was reading the bit about cover saves...

Ok, as far as shooting goes...

If my unit is IN area terrain (lets say Woods), they benefit from a cover save as long as more than half the unit is actually in or behind the woods?

Now - if they are firing out of the woods - is the same true? Lets say that there's an enemy unit in clear terrain about 8" in front of a wooded area. My units are in the wooded area. I have 9 models in my unit... 5 models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain.

The enemy unit gets no cover save, Right?

But if only 4 of my models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain, and the other 5 models have to fire through more than 2" of wooded terrain, then the enemy unit would benefit from a cover save?

What about assaults? How would area terrain work then? Lets say my unit is in the same woods and get assaulted. How much of the unit has to be occupying the area terrain to be counted as being in cover? If the unit is behind the area terrain, can they be spotted? Can they be assaulted?

Just some sort of basic concept - or reference pages in the rules - I'm not asking for quoted paragraphs - just some overview to help me get my head around this...

Thanks...
My understanding with the shooting phase:

In a unit of 9, if 5 are within 2" of the edge of Area terrain, and 4 not, and the target is in the open otherwise, then that unit is only partially in cover, and because >50% are in the open due to your position, it gets no cover save. Reversed, and 4 within 2", and 5 out, then the target unit is partially in cover again, but because 50% or less are in the open due to your position, then they do get the Cover save.

In Assaults its a little different. It doesn't matter how many troops you have in or out of the area terrain (well, sort of), the only thing that matters is whether the charging units assault move actually moves through the area (read difficult or dangerous terrain) at all. Now, if all of your models are in the area, and none are right on the very edge hanging over into the open then you will garuntee that an assaulting unit must move through the cover. A model can have a tiny piece of its base in area and get cover from shooting however, but have most of its base out of the area terrain, and that makes it possible that a charging unit can get into base contact with them without going through cover and then that means that model didn't move through cover in the assault even though you are technically in the area terrain. Also, if the attacker sets up the charge right so that he only has enough models in assault range so that he gets into base contact with your models that are in the area but hanging ove and doesn't go through the area with any of his models himself then you don't get the benefit of being in cover, your models in the area will have to "Defenders React" out of the cover into the rest of his models. Of course, if he doesn't set it up right and any model (any at all, even if its just one out of say 30 in the unit) in the assaulting unit at all has to go into or over even just a little piece of the area terrain, then you get the benefit of having him assault you through cover - he has to make the relevant terrain test (meaning he might not be able to execute the assault if he doesn't roll high enough - and all that unit attacks at initiative 1, unless he has something like Frag grenades to counter that.
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 14:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
If my unit is IN area terrain (lets say Woods), they benefit from a cover save as long as more than half the unit is actually in or behind the woods?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
Now - if they are firing out of the woods - is the same true? Lets say that there's an enemy unit in clear terrain about 8" in front of a wooded area. My units are in the wooded area. I have 9 models in my unit... 5 models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain.

The enemy unit gets no cover save, Right?
Correct


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
But if only 4 of my models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain, and the other 5 models have to fire through more than 2" of wooded terrain, then the enemy unit would benefit from a cover save?
Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
What about assaults? How would area terrain work then? Lets say my unit is in the same woods and get assaulted. How much of the unit has to be occupying the area terrain to be counted as being in cover? If the unit is behind the area terrain, can they be spotted? Can they be assaulted?
Pg. 36, Assaulting Through Cover handles it. In short, if the assaulter has to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test to charge you then you benefit from cover. If you have some in area terrain and some out, it's all a matter really of how he moves his charging unit, but if he has to test terrain to charge then you got cover.

Being behind area terrain doesn't matter now. You can be shot through it, you get cover though, and you can be assaulted through it, again you'd get cover as mentioned above.
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 14:44   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

What about something like a low wall - when it comes to assaults?

Lets say we have one of those adhoc rubble and debris 'walls' that you always see... My Firewarriors are set-up directly behind the wall, so they get a cover save from fire, but they don't allow the cover save when they fire - because they are right behind the wall.

But if the Orks assault the position... now what? Do I move the Firewarriors back a little to allow the Orks to get over the barricade? Do the Firewarriors move to the front of the terrain? Do we just assume that any models in contact with the barrier are also in base contact?
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 14:55   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
What about something like a low wall - when it comes to assaults?

Lets say we have one of those adhoc rubble and debris 'walls' that you always see... My Firewarriors are set-up directly behind the wall, so they get a cover save from fire, but they don't allow the cover save when they fire - because they are right behind the wall.

But if the Orks assault the position... now what? Do I move the Firewarriors back a little to allow the Orks to get over the barricade? Do the Firewarriors move to the front of the terrain? Do we just assume that any models in contact with the barrier are also in base contact?
I usually play that moving over a low wall like that is moving through/over difficult terrain - but it's best if you agree with your opponent before the game begins what terrain is classed as what, so there aren't any discrepancies mid-battle.

For how I play, yes, if the Fire warriors are completely behind the low wall, and the Orks must charge them over it with their assault move then yes it counts as assaulting through cover. If the Orks used their move and run to move over the wall and beyond the obstacle, and then Waaagh!ed for the Fleet ability to attack, and then attacked them from behind or the side, and didn't need to go over the wall, then no they wouldn't get the assault through cover benefit. But again, make sure you define all terrain with your opponent after the board is set up but before you do anything else, especially before any models start to go down on the table.
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 15:04   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor{DoH}
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
But if only 4 of my models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain, and the other 5 models have to fire through more than 2" of wooded terrain, then the enemy unit would benefit from a cover save?
Yep
Under what circumstances might it be appropriate to used the 'reduced cover save' option in this type of situation?

I mean - let's say that the target unit is in the open, as in the example above... now the type of cover might give a 4+ cover save, since the target is in the open, and nearly half the shooters are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain... might it be proper to give the target unit only a 5+ or even 6+ cover save...?

I mean - they are standing right out in the open...
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 15:10   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor{DoH}
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
But if only 4 of my models are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain, and the other 5 models have to fire through more than 2" of wooded terrain, then the enemy unit would benefit from a cover save?
Yep
Under what circumstances might it be appropriate to used the 'reduced cover save' option in this type of situation?

I mean - let's say that the target unit is in the open, as in the example above... now the type of cover might give a 4+ cover save, since the target is in the open, and nearly half the shooters are within 2" of the edge of the area terrain... might it be proper to give the target unit only a 5+ or even 6+ cover save...?

I mean - they are standing right out in the open...
If 4 are definitely within 2", and 4 are definitely out of the 2" and it's very tough to tell whether that last model is in fact in front of or behind the 2" mark because it's so close to it that it's hard to have a completely accurate measure - then I'd use the 5+ cover save as the compromise.
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 15:24   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezalhualixtlan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
What about something like a low wall - when it comes to assaults?

Lets say we have one of those adhoc rubble and debris 'walls' that you always see... My Firewarriors are set-up directly behind the wall, so they get a cover save from fire, but they don't allow the cover save when they fire - because they are right behind the wall.

But if the Orks assault the position... now what? Do I move the Firewarriors back a little to allow the Orks to get over the barricade? Do the Firewarriors move to the front of the terrain? Do we just assume that any models in contact with the barrier are also in base contact?
I usually play that moving over a low wall like that is moving through/over difficult terrain - but it's best if you agree with your opponent before the game begins what terrain is classed as what, so there aren't any discrepancies mid-battle.

For how I play, yes, if the Fire warriors are completely behind the low wall, and the Orks must charge them over it with their assault move then yes it counts as assaulting through cover. If the Orks used their move and run to move over the wall and beyond the obstacle, and then Waaagh!ed for the Fleet ability to attack, and then attacked them from behind or the side, and didn't need to go over the wall, then no they wouldn't get the assault through cover benefit. But again, make sure you define all terrain with your opponent after the board is set up but before you do anything else, especially before any models start to go down on the table.
But how would I actually position the models, in this case? Just fill in the gaps between the FireWarriors with Orks? What if the the Firewarriors were positioned base to base behind the wall? Would you move them back a little, to allow the Ork models to be placed on the same side of the wall - just to indicate that they moved through the obstacle?
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 15:36   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazadvorn
But how would I actually position the models, in this case? Just fill in the gaps between the FireWarriors with Orks? What if the the Firewarriors were positioned base to base behind the wall? Would you move them back a little, to allow the Ork models to be placed on the same side of the wall - just to indicate that they moved through the obstacle?
I've had a few games where my Tyranids were assaulting either Orks or Space Marines over low walls like that, friendly games though - so what we did was stand my models on the wall (in the case of small stuff like gaunts or Genestealers that are plastic, not too weighty, and can balance or lean into the position they should be), with the base in contact with the enemy model behind the wall, only vertically dispositioned... or in the case of larger stuff, particularly things that are won't balance, I just put them up to the base of the wall, and my opponent and I simply agreed that we both knew it was able to get up to the model in question and therefore it's actual position was there regardless of the fact that the model really sat a fraction of an inch from where it should be. We've had to do things like that in general though because often some of the terrain become problematic, like hills where you can't really balance something on it, or it slides down, and you just have to agree that the position is where it should be, and leave the model sit where it can actually stand. Then for things like measuring firing distances, or real line of sight, or movement for the next turn, you pick the model up, place it and hold it where it should be, and then do the appropriate calculations from there.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 15:57   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Cover Saves - I'm a little confused....

I think the rulebook covers "Wobbly Model Syndrome" (or something like that) where it is acceptable to say, this model is standing on the barricade without actually placing it there, to prevent you damaging your models or your opponent's.

So I'd say some intuitive treatment is acceptable.
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