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Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 13:18   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed



Ok, this is the setup (I don't play Chaos, so ignore any mistakes in the actual forces listed I'm assuming all three of these troop types can be fielded together, for the sake of the question I just wanted Fearless units)...

During the Chaos players turn a unit of Plague Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Noise Marines all charge into combat with Marines, one Tact Squad, and one Assault squad. The units tie everything up into one big combat, as most of the Berserkers assault the Assault Squad and one assaults the Tact Squad. The Plague Marines also hit both units, most against the Tact Squad, and one against the Assault Squad.

Through the random attack, wound, and save rolls, the Space Marines wound more Chaos Marines and win combat. All three units of Chaos Marines are Fearless however.

Units that are Fearless generally have to take No Retreat wounds when they lose combat. Pg 44 in the 5th Ed book -
"No Retreat:
It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, ...
These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back. Instead these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by ...
If none of the enemies involved in the combat against a fearless unit can actually hurt it, the unit does not suffer any wounds if its side is defeated in combat, and simply continues to fight."

Also, on pg 40 -
"Disallowed Sweeping Advances:
If a victorious unit is still locked in combat with other units that are not falling back, it does not get a chance to execute a sweeping advance and the retreating enemy falls back safely."

Pg 41 -
"Multiple Combats - Assault Results:
When determining assault results in a multiple combat, total up the number of wounds inflicted by each side to see which side is the winner. Every unit on the losing side has to check their Morale (they all use the same penalty, as described in the Morale section) After all the losing units have taken their Morale checks, any winning unit that is not free to make a Sweeping Advance rolls the dice and compare its total with the total of each of the the falling back enemy units it was engaged with. Any that it equals or beats are destroyed. Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight."

So...

The Space Marines lose 4 total, and the Chaos Marines lose 5 total. The Chaos Marines lose combat by 1, but are fearless.

If the White X's represent the models that were removed due to combat wounds, what happens?

Do all three units of the Chaos forces suffer one wound each to save due to No Retreat? Do none of the Chaos Marines suffer No Retreat wounds because the Space Marines are still locked in combat with other units and would therefore be unable to initiate a Sweeping Advance to harm the Chaos Marines, and then the fight would continue on? Or, would you apply one No Retreat wound to say the Plague Marines (failed or saved, the Plague Marines would still be locking both the Tact & Assault Squad in combat then disallowing Sweeping Advances), and then that would mean you don't need to apply No Retreat wounds to the Berserkers and Noise Marines?

It's a complex situation of course, what is the outcome?
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 19:25   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed

Ok, the key to this is this bit, "they all use the same penalty, as described in the Morale section". Chaos lost by 1, so each Chaos unit would take 1 wound. They take the wounds for having lost and being fearless, it has nothing to do with still being locked in combat. Sweeping advances depend on being locked in combat however, but fearless units never fall back so it's moot.
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 19:50   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor{DoH}
Ok, the key to this is this bit, "they all use the same penalty, as described in the Morale section". Chaos lost by 1, so each Chaos unit would take 1 wound. They take the wounds for having lost and being fearless, it has nothing to do with still being locked in combat. Sweeping advances depend on being locked in combat however, but fearless units never fall back so it's moot.
I don't have my 5E book with me, but I believe that the sweeping advance rules changed - you don't have to have any models in base contact at the end to be swept now. It hurts my Necrons :-(
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 19:54   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor{DoH}
Ok, the key to this is this bit, "they all use the same penalty, as described in the Morale section". Chaos lost by 1, so each Chaos unit would take 1 wound. They take the wounds for having lost and being fearless, it has nothing to do with still being locked in combat. Sweeping advances depend on being locked in combat however, but fearless units never fall back so it's moot.
Correct, you don't need base-to-base anymore. A pity GW takes more steps backwards than forwards sometimes...
I don't have my 5E book with me, but I believe that the sweeping advance rules changed - you don't have to have any models in base contact at the end to be swept now. It hurts my Necrons :-(
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Old 30 Jul 2008, 22:50   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor{DoH}
Ok, the key to this is this bit, "they all use the same penalty, as described in the Morale section". Chaos lost by 1, so each Chaos unit would take 1 wound. They take the wounds for having lost and being fearless, it has nothing to do with still being locked in combat. Sweeping advances depend on being locked in combat however, but fearless units never fall back so it's moot.
I guess the "And they shall know no Fear" rule got me confused... it seemed to me from that, that the "No Retreat" wounds in general just came in lieu of being Sweeping Advanced, not necessarily just from failing Morale and falling back, or merely being Immune to Morale checks, but I guess the rulebook is more clear upon re-reading it.

Kind of harsh though in a multiple combat like that then you can easily end up losing more wounds across your units to No Retreat than you actually lost combat by to begin with, and that can multiply up quickly depending on the number of units involved and how much you lose combat by... and kind of doesn't make sense to me then. Especially when if your units weren't immune, particularly in the case of a multiple combat like this, so long as one unit stays engaged with the winner, the other units would quite safely break off with no chance of being caught in a Sweeping Advance. I guess it's less costly to higher armor units. I'm more concerned for things like Gaunts, or heck, most of my Tyranids at 5+&6+ while in Synapse. I played a game last weekend, and we resolved it as you stated above, where all the units took No Retreat wounds... let me put up a picture of what happened:



So, I charged a similar line of Marines to the first example. 1 Ravener, 2 units of 6 Genestealers, 1 unit of 12 Gaunts

I had the misfortune of linking the two separate units being assaulted by 1 Genestealer in the middle. My Raveners and Genestealers made mincemeat of the Assault Squad and would have otherwise won that combat by 3, but because I had linked them into one big multiple combat, the Tact Squad on the other side took out a bunch of Termagants and I ended up losing combat by two.

Total Combat Results:
-5 Assault Squad
-1 Genestealer
-1 Genestealer
-5 Termagants

Tyranids lose combat by 2.

I was in Synapse with everything however. So then we applied No Retreat wounds across the combat.

2 wounds on the Termagants at 6+... 2 dead Gaunts.
2 wounds on the second group of Genestealers at 5+... 2 dead Genestealers
2 wounds on the next group of Genestealers at 5+... 2 dead Genestealers
2 wounds on the Ravener at 5+... dead Ravener.

The Marines only did 7 total wounds in the combat itself, and I only lost by two... but then ended up taking 8 more, more than I lost in the combat itself, to No Retreat. That just kind of seemed pretty ridiculous... to the point I couldn't believe that was really how it was supposed to be... I figured we had to have made a mistake somewhere.

If not, I guess I'll be modifying my strategy quite a bit, and never support better units with lowly gaunts. And actually, I've had trouble with my Gaunts just completely wiping themselves out on a charge entirely a few games in a row now... they'll go in, attempt to overwhelm in numbers, but of course they aren't that great and lots die, just like above. In 4th, they'd usually never be outnumbered so it wasn't a problem, they wouldn't suffer No Retreat wounds... now... I'm lucky if half the unit isn't wiped out to start, and I end up losing the 2nd half to No Retreat. I guess it's not the end of the world if this is really how it's supposed to be, I'll just have to figure out different strategies and other things to do, but it's really a bummer for swarm type armies. It's making me wary of ever charging anything with them at all... let alone going into combat with other things so that my better stuff isn't threatened by the wounds they end up taking.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 11:02   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Sweeping Advances and No Retreat Question: 5th Ed

Assault as a whole became harsh in 5th. They were really aiming for speeding them up, assaults, and I'm all for that. In 4th it was so common to have an assault that lasted most of the game. Fearless units hardly had to deal with outnumbering, or it was just maybe a wound they'd take, and leadership was hardly modified so those who weren't fearless would typically stick it out until they all went down. Sweeping advances only occurred if there was base contact at the end of assault and of course smart players would ensure that never happened.

All that got changed and as a result assault is quicker and just much more deciding than it once was.
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