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No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.
Old 19 Jul 2008, 10:14   #1 (permalink)
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Default No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Well now it has been a week since the glorious Edition Number the Fifth of Warhammer 40,000 has graced us with its glorious presence, coming down as it did from the Heavens to dispense milk and cookies and reward us all for being so patient with some of the bugs of Fourth and replace them with new bugs, ranging from unanswered leftovers from Fourth (such as the “How many Kill Points do I get with a Fire Warrior squad in Devilfish with detached drones) to entirely new things, such as something that I can tell could possibly rise in power to rival that of All Your Base, the Star Wars Kid and possibly even Long Cat. Yes, I am of course referring to that Fireknife suit on page 172.

I’m sure we’re all experiencing degrees of worry, though, that may or may not be starting to be dealt with in our first impressions. Certain things will handle differently, we are all certain of this. How much of a difference will ramming make? Those Carnifex are a lot more scary now they can run. With the rending and skimmer nerf, is it even worth playing Eldar any more? And similar thoughts and so on and so forth. Because yes, Fifth is very different to Fourth. And in this article, the point of which you’ve possibly been trying to work out for the last two paragraphs, I will discuss one of the biggest changes and how I plan to do absolutely nothing about it.

This may well turn into more of an assessment of the Armchair General vs Armchair Historian debate, but I shall see how that goes as I progress. This is actually the first time I have written an article as such for Tau Online, because my weighty fluff wanking in Paradigm Shift (nearly finished) and The End (pretty much started) hardly counts, as both of them steer well clear of talking about how this affects any of us as players, or how we can approach the universe or game of Warhammer 40,000 from our position on 3rd (and yes, it is the 3rd) Millennium Earth. It will not be the last article, as I have been contracted by the great Yriel of Iyanden (I say “contracted,” but actually I just messaged him and said “Please can I do...”) to write an article on the different kinds of Eldar, but that is for another day.

As I’m sure many of us are now contemplating, Fifth Edition makes it so that Troops choices, and only Troops choices, are scoring units. It turns out on closer inspection that I do actually field a lot more of these than I’d originally thought, but in all the lists I have written recently the Troops choices have been minimal. “But Circus!” I hear you cry. “That will make your armies ineffective in two thirds of the Fifth Edition missions! You have to put some more Troops in!”

Which brings me neatly on to the subject of this post. No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

For me game effectiveness has always been secondary, and it is for a lot of people. The only army I field that could genuinely be considered a “Good Army” from a game effectiveness point of view is my Counts-As 13th Company (who I will showcase at some point, honest), and this happened purely by accident. The weapons combinations on my Tau suits are worked out from what feels like it might be a good idea on paper and looks cool in practice (such as Fusion Blaster and Flamer), and to be perfectly frank my own tactics when using Tau were kind of poor anyway. My Necrons have a large amount of Wraiths despite people consistently telling me I should start a Destroyer Flying Circus, but strangely never pointing out that the strongest point in favour of the Flying Circus case was it shared my nickname, so of course I never tried it. I liked Wraiths. I don’t care that perhaps they should have power weapons and as such they aren’t quite as effective as they should be. You know what I also like? Pariahs. They’re slow. They’re not “Necrons.” But their fluff is so cool I just don’t care.

My Eldar army, after the demise of the Journal Harlequin list with the publication of the new Codex (something I lament not because of the unspeakable beard capable with that list, but the awesome fluff-mongering I heartily endorse), is entirely consistent of Pathfinders and Dark Reapers. Oh yeah, and a couple of Farseers. I can’t really reliably hurt tanks. But it’s a cool army and it does surprisingly well, because the enemy tends to get bored when all they have left is one tank. But again its effectiveness is entirely accidental. I thought “Sniper army. Sounds nice.” and did it.

I’ve just realised that by keeping my best example up my sleeve for so long you might be wondering where this is going, or in fact if it is going anywhere other than a personal rant. So here it is. You all remember Nidzilla? Fondly or perhaps not so fondly? You now either embrace or bemoan Fifth Edition, because, and it must be said, Fifth Edition has pretty much broken the proverbial Carnifex’s back. The Carnifex themselves don’t score anymore. Your Tyrants don’t score. Hell, even your Rippers that you put in to have a legal Force Organisation Chart don’t score because they’re Mindless so even though you do actually have some troops there they will do you no good Autobot, they cannot be opened.

Forgive that remark.

So Nidzilla is officially dead, and its opponents rejoice because now they can focus on fighting “proper” Tyranid armies. “Fluffy” Tyranid armies. And these guys are now shifting nervously, saying “Circus, what are you doing? What are you saying? You advocate fluff, but I can sense it, the hairs on the back of my neck are standing on end, you’re about to extol Nidzilla, aren’t you?”

Yes. Yes I am.

The Tyranid swarm is fluffy, yes. The idea of hundreds of Gaunts hurtling across a wilderness expanse does appeal to me. But even more appealing is the idea of huge alien monsters, ripping and roaring their way through undergrowth, cleaving aside those puny Imperial Guardsmen like ragdolls. And the thing is, it’s entirely possible to build a Nid army like this. And, with the release of the Tyranid version of the Armoured Interdiction Cadre set (3 for 2 Carnifex), I intend to.

Now your discomfort has turned to laughter, because you think I won’t win any games. But you know what? I should have a pretty good go in one third of missions, so that’ll be nice, and to be honest when I’m fielding five Carnifex and three Lictors plus HQs I’m not overly bothered about claiming objectives, I’ll be having the time of my life totalling enemy squads. Denying them their objectives.

I guess it’s kinda similar to the quote in the Ork Codex along the lines of “Orks never lose, if we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it doesn’t matter, and if we run away we come back and win later.” You just know that your individual Ork is not going to be bothered about taking Objectives X and Y on their first push, they just want to get a good krumpin’ in. And there’s enough of them to pull it off.

What I’m trying to say is.

People have been coming to me in my store since the release of Fifth. I’m sure they’ve been coming to all of you guys here who are established veterans in your stores. They’ve been saying things like “Jackhenry/Circus, you’ve been playing since Third,” (and Pete’s been playing since Second but he intimidates the children), “What are you going to do for Fifth Edition? What will you change?” and my answer to them is exactly the same as the answer I just implied and am about to give to you.

Nothing. Not a damn thing.

*cue patriotic music getting louder in the background over next speech*
I will continue to build armies based solely on what I feel is cool at the time. I will not bend to trends of 6-man Las/Plas or pimped out Holofalcons just to gain an advantage on the battlefield. Any advantage I can gain through my incredibly cool looking armies will be purely coincidental, and I shall work on the basis that the Space Marines of the Men of Asrai under the leadership of Forest Lord Oak Orion are clashing against Abaddon’s Black Legion on the world of Heroxis Delta for control of a priceless artefact the ownership of which could shift the balance of power in the system. I will not be having a contest of wills with my friend Galla using our Warhammer as an outlet, because that is frankly boring and I’ve played him enough times now that it doesn’t matter who wins or loses, so much more interesting is the stories played out on the table in front of us.

Even if he does field Abaddon >_>

And the thing is, I know you all know what I mean. How many times have you had a sole heavy weapon trooper wipe out the last of a swarm, or take out a Land Raider? How many times have you put your HQ into combat with your enemy’s HQ, just because you know that is how it should be? How many times have you made daring last stands even when you knew you would lose and folding the game would make sense, knowing that you could pass on the story to your friends, or your allies on Tau Online?

So if you like Troops then by all means carry on using them. You liked them enough to keep them through Fourth so go right ahead and use them in Fifth. But I hope I might have inspired you all, in your friendly games at least (I’m not asking you to go to Tournaments with this mentality, that would be silly) remember the reasons we are playing 40K, and not Warmachine. We have such an awesome background. Embrace it. Indulge it. Take it home to meet your mother.

And don’t desperately try and get all six maxed out Troops choices in, because then you are no better than the people who fielded 6 man las/plas, pimped out Holofalcons or last-Codex Iron Warriors with 12 Heavy Support choices.
Originally Posted by Restayvien
Well I'd rather not play the game at all than play it like they did! :P
Crikey! This crazy clown causes commotion like the coming of Christ. Contained in a circle corrupted by crackheads and carnal cravings, he creates no concession to callous cheaters concentrating on nought but cock. Certainly, still a curious and cordial cavalier in the countenance of crazed cads, curs and creeps who condemn courtesy as something corny. No cloud could collapse his crushing crescendo of comical crowing and crimson coiffure. This conjecture on culture comes circumlocutive, consequently...

You may call me Circus.
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 10:52   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Damn straight, I'm not changing my list for 5th Ed either. 2 troop choices will do me fine(hopefully).
Click on these little dudes to get a slightly bigger little dude!

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Old 19 Jul 2008, 11:37   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Amen to that brother, speaking straight from the soul. (forgive my attempts at a baptist preist)

your right and i'm glad there's some players around like me, who don't care about winning or losing, just playing the game. i salute you circus. ;D
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Many Bothans died to bring this thread back on topic
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 11:50   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

I totally agree ay. What a truthful post.

Im keeping my army the same aswell regardless of the new edition, i just think it will keep games fun and enjoyable rather than "hey man what you got'' "six troops" "Same" "Man this will be a long (whisper) boring Match. lol
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 11:51   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

thanks, I needed that.

my tau armie's golden rule is: its either a vehicle, in a vehicle, or my shas'o. as you can imagine, 5th has practically ruined me (due to my refusal to use more than 2 troops choices until i have 15 pirhanas), but I can still just have a laugh and try to smash my foe (and usually fail, even in 4th)
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 12:34   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Okay Circus, you've got us.
To be honest, I have changed my list slightly for 5th, but now I'm beginning to think…

Winning be damned!
I want my army on the table. Not something general consensus says works.
My army. Plain and simple.

That's a singularly inspiring piece of writing there Circus, almost enough to make me dust off my old NidZilla…
Originally Posted by CmdrBonesaw
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We have done the impossible... and that makes us mighty.
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 12:57   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

So I've only got 2 squads of 5 marines to hold objectives with, so what? I'm going to have a blast as my Bikers tear up the table and butcher their way through the enemy. Also means I don't have to paint up anymore marines

This is game about having fun, not winning at any cost.

My Imperial Guard Blog (Now with the correct spelling ):

"It matters not what form my enemy takes, I will slay him all the same" - Grand Master Daedelus

We are ever-living, our spirit is immortal, and long after the last of our people crumbles to dust we shall still live on. For we are the Asur and for as long as there is light then we will shine!
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 13:08   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Stuff games-workshop.
Im still pimping the hell out of my elites.
Anyway troops normally hold objectives a couple of hours after the battle. So should i move my elites of the board?
Gah im angry.
Thats it

Originally Posted by Piedmon
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 13:26   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

I'm of a similar mind. I won't be changing my army list just for fifth... However I also believe I'm in a different boat than most of you...

I've almost always preferred troop heavy armies. My Daemonzilla list contains 6 troop choices, and most marine armies I've ever ran had at least 4. And not the min/maxed units either, but 4 full units. Heck my tau I just sold off (was a sad day but had to be done) used 3 full squads, one of which used carbines instead of rifles...

Which leads to a counterpoint: why GW made it so troops are the only scoring unit. I believe that this is more of a friendly website, not completely cut-throat when it comes to list writing. I've seen numerous people extol the virtue of fluff... But too many times have I seen army lists that do the minimum when it comes to troops to try to max out on the "cool stuff". How many times have you read a tournament winning army list only to notice they relied almost entirely on heavies/elites/fast/hq?

Lysander Wing
Flying Circus
Siren Bomb
Any Eldar list... (ok, that one was just to be funny ;D )

What happens to those lists when the only thing that can still win the game is destroyed second turn by an opponent that played a balanced list with more than the 2 minimum troops? Nothing in 4th edition as they can still win. But in 5th they aren't necessarily auto wins anymore. Thus allowing for competitive fluffy lists... However I'm sure there will always be the min/maxing power gamers out there who will still figure out ways to shoe horn their way in :
To blindly follow others is to live the life of a lemming. Be yourself, no matter what others may say.
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 13:43   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: No. No, I do not. And I’m damned if you’re going to make me.

Dang, this is just like the epic speech before the final battle!

It brings to mind Aragorn at the Black Gate, King Henry V before Agincourt, Heck, even Eisenhower before Normandy!

HELLZ YEAH! If they are bothered by my fluffy army composition, they can go eat a dreadsock! WOOOO

Originally Posted by Howloutloud

Lysander Wing
Flying Circus
Siren Bomb
Any Eldar list... (ok, that one was just to be funny ;D )

I Think NOT!
Originally Posted by Crazedmongoose
I'm certain that when I grow old I'll become probably conservative and my rebellious teenage children will rail against me for supporting the enslavement of animals classed as "pets" under a cruel regime of apartheid, and also think I'm a bigot cos I don't want to allow neo-cyborg lupine hyper sexual marriage.
Originally Posted by BloodiedFangs
Scoutninja's 100% correct.

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