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Why does it take GW so long...
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 00:43   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Why does it take GW so long...

...to come up with new models?

Necrons have a measly choice of models. And very little plastic ones too! Even Tau don't have too many.

Why doesn't Games Workshop create plastic models for all units that generally have more than a couple warriors? (I don't expect them to make plastic Ethreals or Ograns, for example)

And is there a reason why they don't make more models (even in metal) for certain races? I know sculpting does take a while, but Forgeworld seems to pump them out pretty fast.

I am not judging them for this - I am simply asking Personally, I thinK Necrons are pretty cool, and I would consider starting a Necron army, but with such a small range of models, there isn't much choice. They aren't as interesting to create an army for as say, The Space Marines, or Imperial Guard, or Eldar, who have a myriad of choices in for each battlefield role.

Imagine if each race had as much choice in models as the Space Marines? Would be pretty cool.
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 01:24   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
...to come up with new models?
There are plenty of reasons why kits simply don't pop out of the shops in the numbers we like, including:
* Sculpting time
* Breaking the sculpts down into their "bits" or making sure the multi-bit sculpts go together properly when cast
* Sprue design (as they have to make sure the plastic can get to everywhere in the sprue and you don't end up with deformed or miscast bits)
* Packaging design (the graphic artists for the boxes themselves, and how the finished sprues will actually fit inside the boxes without too much wasted space)
* Production - actually casting the sprues and printing the boxes and putting the two together
* Shipping times, not only from production plant to shop, but from the suppliers of the card board and plastics to the production plant

Any one of the above could lead to delays, although I do acknowledge some of these will be going on in parallel (sculpters working whilst graphic arstists are busy designing the boxes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Necrons have a measly choice of models. And very little plastic ones too! Even Tau don't have too many.
That is mainly due to their low number of options offered by their list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Why doesn't Games Workshop create plastic models for all units that generally have more than a couple warriors? (I don't expect them to make plastic Ethreals or Ograns, for example)
Finding the time, the staff and the money to actually do all the work is the hard part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
And is there a reason why they don't make more models (even in metal) for certain races? I know sculpting does take a while, but Forgeworld seems to pump them out pretty fast.
The biggest problem with producing more models is A) shopping space. GW stores and Rogue Traders can only stock so much B) Warehouse space. Warehouse space costs money for stock that's doing nothing to return it's initial and continued outlay.

Although bear in mind that if they dropped LoTR, they would free up plenty of space and allow them to do more for their proper core systems as the sculpters could then work on the stuff they actually ripped off someone else invented and own all the IP to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
I am not judging them for this - I am simply asking Personally, I thinK Necrons are pretty cool, and I would consider starting a Necron army, but with such a small range of models, there isn't much choice. They aren't as interesting to create an army for as say, The Space Marines, or Imperial Guard, or Eldar, who have a myriad of choices in for each battlefield role.
Again, from a personal fluff stand point, Necrons are pretty boring. You can't really give each Necron warrior a personal history like you can a Space Marine or even Guard army. The only ones you can really invent fluff for is the Lord, and perhaps the Pariahs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Imagine if each race had as much choice in models as the Space Marines? Would be pretty cool.
It would, I agree with you . I personally like to see plastic Sisters of Battle so you don't have an army of clones .
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 02:22   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

I don't think there is anything wrong with GW's models, except XV-88s. I've had to reglue every Railgun to the Hardpoints at least once. I would actulaly like to see single part metal fire wariors, because GW poses them better than any one else could ever dream of. They could sell the Shas'ui as one product, and sell the Pulse Rifle and Carbine models in different boxes, 12 at a time.
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 06:39   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

The advancement of technology has increased greatly the past 20 years. Just look at the rogue trader day models and now for an example on what I am talking about.

Packaging design and production and the rest can be done quickly.

R&D can take time. A Master sculptor that I have seen doing a complex model from scratch can build a prototype within 2 weeks.

Generally it comes down to the following.

How much money is GW is going to spend on R&D as well as Production, and other variables

There are rates on availability, volume, material, and even shipping that is taken into consideration.

The reason why I know this is because several of my friends are in different aspects of manufacturing, in the entertainment industry and in R&D.

GW has their rate on what they want to produce. It's simply a financial call. There rate on new models being produced are acceptable to me, simply because I know and understand generally their production and manufacturing methods.

As I have said before and I'll say it again I will give credit when credit is due and will be critical when it needs to be.

All things considered, GW's practices on creating new model content is fine.





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Old 13 Jul 2008, 06:43   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 122
Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange One (FT)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
...to come up with new models?
There are plenty of reasons why kits simply don't pop out of the shops in the numbers we like, including:
* Sculpting time
* Breaking the sculpts down into their "bits" or making sure the multi-bit sculpts go together properly when cast
* Sprue design (as they have to make sure the plastic can get to everywhere in the sprue and you don't end up with deformed or miscast bits)
* Packaging design (the graphic artists for the boxes themselves, and how the finished sprues will actually fit inside the boxes without too much wasted space)
* Production - actually casting the sprues and printing the boxes and putting the two together
* Shipping times, not only from production plant to shop, but from the suppliers of the card board and plastics to the production plant

Any one of the above could lead to delays, although I do acknowledge some of these will be going on in parallel (sculpters working whilst graphic arstists are busy designing the boxes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Necrons have a measly choice of models. And very little plastic ones too! Even Tau don't have too many.
That is mainly due to their low number of options offered by their list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Why doesn't Games Workshop create plastic models for all units that generally have more than a couple warriors? (I don't expect them to make plastic Ethreals or Ograns, for example)
Finding the time, the staff and the money to actually do all the work is the hard part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
And is there a reason why they don't make more models (even in metal) for certain races? I know sculpting does take a while, but Forgeworld seems to pump them out pretty fast.
The biggest problem with producing more models is A) shopping space. GW stores and Rogue Traders can only stock so much B) Warehouse space. Warehouse space costs money for stock that's doing nothing to return it's initial and continued outlay.

Although bear in mind that if they dropped LoTR, they would free up plenty of space and allow them to do more for their proper core systems as the sculpters could then work on the stuff they actually ripped off someone else invented and own all the IP to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
I am not judging them for this - I am simply asking Personally, I thinK Necrons are pretty cool, and I would consider starting a Necron army, but with such a small range of models, there isn't much choice. They aren't as interesting to create an army for as say, The Space Marines, or Imperial Guard, or Eldar, who have a myriad of choices in for each battlefield role.
Again, from a personal fluff stand point, Necrons are pretty boring. You can't really give each Necron warrior a personal history like you can a Space Marine or even Guard army. The only ones you can really invent fluff for is the Lord, and perhaps the Pariahs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Imagine if each race had as much choice in models as the Space Marines? Would be pretty cool.
It would, I agree with you . I personally like to see plastic Sisters of Battle so you don't have an army of clones .
Thank you! This generally answers my questions!

Do you think any of it is part of the issue that GW doesn't want to make too much, because than things won't sell? (For example, no point investing lots in plastic Sisters of Battle if the line doesn't sell well) Is GW a high or low profit company I wonder... can they afford to invest tonnes of time and money into making a whole new army to see if it sticks? (The Tau weren't a risk at all in my opinion - coolest race since Space Marine IMHO).

And I didn't know the Necron fluff/army was so boring... do you think this is simply a result of a lack of models, or the intention - to make a boring, stiff, lumbering army. I can think of many ideas for units consistent with the Necrons on my own - I can't even imagine the cool stuff the geniuses at 40k could do. (or the things they could rip off and tweak to make slightly cooler )

Sometimes I think if GW would pick up "make it in plastic and they will come" policy for every army, they could convince a lot more of us to buy more. I 100% agree that plastic Sisters of Battle would be a huge hit. What do you think?
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 10:56   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
Do you think any of it is part of the issue that GW doesn't want to make too much, because than things won't sell? (For example, no point investing lots in plastic Sisters of Battle if the line doesn't sell well) Is GW a high or low profit company I wonder... can they afford to invest tonnes of time and money into making a whole new army to see if it sticks? (The Tau weren't a risk at all in my opinion - coolest race since Space Marine IMHO).
I can answer some of this.

GW at this moment is a financially stressed company. This is the reasons for the sudden increase of codex's being produced as well as 5Th ed. Sisters and deamonhunters and Dark Eldar are unfortunately do not sell well.

This is why that the starter box set is such a good deal.

Do you really, really think that if GW was in the black in their net profit that we see this kind of Deal? No.

You have to remember that this $60 starter box is close to $300 if you bought the models separately.

They are trying to stop or at least slow down the erosion of their market base because this product will appeal to veterans and new comers.
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 12:56   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonette Embrace
Quote:
Do you think any of it is part of the issue that GW doesn't want to make too much, because than things won't sell? (For example, no point investing lots in plastic Sisters of Battle if the line doesn't sell well) Is GW a high or low profit company I wonder... can they afford to invest tonnes of time and money into making a whole new army to see if it sticks? (The Tau weren't a risk at all in my opinion - coolest race since Space Marine IMHO).
I can answer some of this.

GW at this moment is a financially stressed company. This is the reasons for the sudden increase of codex's being produced as well as 5Th ed. Sisters and deamonhunters and Dark Eldar are unfortunately do not sell well.

This is why that the starter box set is such a good deal.

Do you really, really think that if GW was in the black in their net profit that we see this kind of Deal? No.

You have to remember that this $60 starter box is close to $300 if you bought the models separately.

They are trying to stop or at least slow down the erosion of their market base because this product will appeal to veterans and new comers.
well their market base erosion wouldn't happen if they didn't price some of their stuff ridiculously high.
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 18:11   #8 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Thank you! This generally answers my questions!
Glad to be of service .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Do you think any of it is part of the issue that GW doesn't want to make too much, because than things won't sell?
On some level, I think this is true. There is only so much veterans and new players will buy. The only real way to increase the amount of items sold on release day would be to give players a longer advertising window (so you can see many months ahead of when something is released so you can then plan your purchases more carefully, saving up to buy the bigger packs and what not). Unfortunately, they would need to give more pages to adverts (like that could happen ) in the White Dwarf for new releases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
(For example, no point investing lots in plastic Sisters of Battle if the line doesn't sell well)
I think in the case of plastic Sisters, it would actually increase the number of players who are willing to start the army, as the biggest problem with Sisters is that the range is entirely metal currently. The Sisters are one of the few armies which have an entirely metal range (barring the robe wearing Guard regiments like Valhallans etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Is GW a high or low profit company I wonder... can they afford to invest tonnes of time and money into making a whole new army to see if it sticks? (The Tau weren't a risk at all in my opinion - coolest race since Space Marine IMHO).
As DE said, they are financially stressed due to many reasons, one of the bigger ones is that they're stuck with the LoTR franchise for a while yet and the post-LoTR-movie-bubble which burst. I think part of the reason why they kept it going as long as they have is that they think when the Hobbit gets released in the movies, they'll see a resurgence of interest in their games, but to be honest, they will see a surge, but not one that will be as big as the one they had when the first three hit the cinemas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
And I didn't know the Necron fluff/army was so boring... do you think this is simply a result of a lack of models, or the intention - to make a boring, stiff, lumbering army.
It was a side effect of the fluff they wrote for them in the codex and the fact that it was a "first generation" codex. By first generation, I mean it was the first ever Necron codex, and they was a limit to how many models and units they could put into production at the time. When the Cron codex gets done, they will more then likely add more variation to the list by adding a few more unit types into the mix. There may also be the fact it was an intentional design trait from the start, to set them apart from the rest of the other armies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
I can think of many ideas for units consistent with the Necrons on my own - I can't even imagine the cool stuff the geniuses at 40k could do. (or the things they could rip off and tweak to make slightly cooler )
If, as I said above, the limited number of options available may be intentional for a reason, and if that is so, it may only be a tweaked codex to bring them inline with the current rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting2
Sometimes I think if GW would pick up "make it in plastic and they will come" policy for every army, they could convince a lot more of us to buy more. I 100% agree that plastic Sisters of Battle would be a huge hit. What do you think?
Up until recently they simply didn't have the technology or the production facilities to make every army entirely plastic, but GW has said in the past that it is a long term strategy to make as much of their range in plastic as possible (barring a few exceptions, like special character models). Unfortunately, the Space Marines (of both types, loyalist and chaotic) seem to get the top priority as far as new releases goes (but then Space Marines are GW's poster boys ).
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Old 13 Jul 2008, 21:44   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Quote:
well their market base erosion wouldn't happen if they didn't price some of their stuff ridiculously high.
People have the assumption of the cost of product is mainly manufacturing. High Volume Manufacturing get cheaper overall when you add in your R&D Costs over a long period of time. Once R&D is done (this includes creating the model masters molds and other content that is needed to manufacture a complete product) it gets shipped to a manufacture to be massed produced, then shipped to their warehouses to be distributed to the masses.

The high cost of energy is of course can be added to -some- of the cost in marketing the product however those numbers can not be placed between the years of 2001 to the end of 2006, when we have been seeing a continual increase of (I believe) %10 a year.

R&D in a primary cost creating content. However GW is too damn Cheap to spend much money on R&D.

Perfect Examples are the 5Th ED Rule book and the Daemon Codex.

5Th ed uses over 90% of canned (Reused) Graphics. This is laughable. Anyone can take pictures of models. The eye candy is simply GARBAGE. You can not compare this $50 Rule book to what Warmanchine OR WofC creates in same cost content. The latter companies are vastly superior.

And for a +100 million Dollar company, this is not acceptable.

The artist who did the Daemon codex?? I have seen 12 year olds draw better artwork that was seen in this codex.

Everything is all done on the Cheap. My opinion on why the models cost so much is the company is too top heavy in upper management.

Next, the company made some critical mistakes. One of them I firmly believe is the licencing deal with Lord of the Rings. The Second is mass store openings into the US during the Dot Bomb era. I have read the marketing deal from GW to an independent store I used to do my business in during that era.

You have no idea on how much damage they have caused to the independent game store market. Then and now.

The Global Market is a ever changing beast that on any given day it is affected the slightest event that can be seen on mass communication (Television, Internet, etc.).


You can thank Phil Kirby and upper management for your high cost of collecting models, Back then and in the hear and now.

He made those past decisions, and he should take the blame.

All of it.




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Old 13 Jul 2008, 22:05   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Why does it take GW so long...

Daemonnette Embrace, you seem to have an intimate knowledge of GW as a company. Who are your sources(employees/Internet/Business Magazines)?
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