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Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 19:20   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers

Id like to share stories of encounters with the dreaded Rules Lawyers, and any tales people have of victory over them, despite their fiendish and annoying ways.

Ill start…

At a Canadian Grand Tournament some time ago, I was doing pretty well the first day, so I ended up playing my Space Marine army at the head table (with set terrain and lovely detailed table features). My opponent ended up being a guy playing Craft World Eldar. The scenario was that we needed to deploy in reserves, and capture command points in the form of 5 token on the table placed randomly in the no-mans zone. Whoever had the most of these 5 tokens at the end won the game, using troop units above 50% to take and carry them.

I got first turn, and had only a whirlwind, my assault squad, and 2 tactical squads on the field to start. The rest had to come in on reserve. I started by saying “I’ll fire the whirlwind at your banshees, but first I have to do my measured shooting so I’ll fire my marines at the scouts.” The scouts were close by, and the banshees and my whirlwind were at the table edges directly across from each other. I didn’t even need to measure the distance since the table length was standard, and I knew it exactly. So I didn’t feel like the measuring of the distances from other shooting would affect it, especially since there was so little on the board thus far. “Ill fire off the whirlwind now, since technically I should do that first.”
“You can’t.” He cut in.
“Why?” I asked.
“You declared your range shooting already and guess comes first. You can’t do it.”
I explained that I didn’t even need to guess, since the board width told me exactly how far it was by assumption. I had declared the target before hand, just to keep it fair anyhow. Nothing from the other shooting had even been measured.
“No you declared the marines were firing, even though you didn’t roll or measure it, you’ve skipped past your guess range phase by declaring it.” He firmly said with a smug smile of self satisfaction.
“Do you want to play like that?” I asked
“What?” He said somewhat confused.
I explained frankly “Were both here to have fun, and since were both at a point where were doing well in our standing, our sportsmanship is a big factor. If you want to play like this nickel and dime-ing me, Ill do the same to you, and were gonna hate each other. You know I should get the shot, so let me take it, or you’re not gonna have much fun here.”
He contemplated it for a moment, and then firmly said “No, you can’t fire it.”
“Fine.” I continued in the game and every single measurement I made sure was exactly base-to-base. If he was a millimeter short, I denied him. If any dice rolled un-level, it got re-rolled as cocked. I put the screws to him all game.
Truth be told his roster was heavier handed then mine, and his Farseers and Avatar were handing me my D'yi points wise, since the reserves forced me to change my supporting tactics and engage units in ways I wouldnt normally do. But I noted that he was so angry at me, that he was neglecting to take opportunities to go for the command points. In the final turn, one of my tactical squads fell below 50% and couldn’t hold the one they had, and dropped it near some banshees. If they chose to fleet of foot, they could grab it up and tie the game 2 chits to 2, which would then be broken by victory points.

I waited in silence as he moved the banshees, and then asked for him to declare shooting. He then declared the shooting for the banshees, and I said “Thanks that will be all. I just won the game.” He squeaked out a “wha?” “You just declared shooting for the banshees, so they can’t fleet and grab that token, so I just won the game.” He checked over the victory conditions on the paper and blanched. “I haven’t rolled the shots yet, can I still…?” “No” I cut him off. “That whirlwind shot doesn’t seem so important now does it?” I shot back. “Well I won more victory points…” he tried to argue. “Doesn’t mean anything in this case, sorry” I pointed out, reading the victory conditions word for word to him just to be clearer. He said he was going to add up the victory points anyhow, and I said he could do whatever he wanted to while I went and recorded my win with the judges.

I felt pretty good about serving him up like that, but ultimately it was exactly as I thought it would be. He gave me rotten sportsmanship points as I knew he would, and I gave equally bad ones to him. I got the win, but it cost me more in the long run in my standing to not get the nice-guy points too. But that battle was still the high point of the day for me long after beating someone with such a crappy attitude

I made the topic a lil more clear for folks -Fish Ead
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:04   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with RLs

Man, that's disgusting. It's one thing to be firmer with the rules in a tournament but you shouldn't be an ass like that guy was.

I'd have let you take the shot. Now, had you skipped a whole phase and wanted to return, I wouldn't allow it. I suspect you, and just about everyone else would do the same in my place though.

I don't really like the idea of sportsmanship points, or painting points to be used in a tournament either though. Unless they are separate from the competition itself.
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:10   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Close Encounters with RLs

At my GW there's like a divide. On one side are the people who just want to enjoy the game, the other, those that treat the rulebook as some kind of bible or something. They will pick up on the slightest little things and blow it out of proportion.

Sad, but there's no way around 'em.
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:12   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Close Encounters with RLs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screaming Cube
At my GW there's like a divide. On one side are the people who just want to enjoy the game, the other, those that treat the rulebook as some kind of bible or something. They will pick up on the slightest little things and blow it out of proportion.

Sad, but there's no way around 'em.
We get loners like that (RAW>everything else)...They tend to leave when nobody will play them.
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:27   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with RLs

I wish they left mine.

There's only about 4 of 'em and thankfully I learnt my lesson playing one the first time, but they just irritate everyone. Going around dissing your models, your tactics, everything.
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:39   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with RLs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screaming Cube
I wish they left mine.

There's only about 4 of 'em and thankfully I learnt my lesson playing one the first time, but they just irritate everyone. Going around dissing your models, your tactics, everything.
The best thing to do is to play them and beat the pis out of them...or just take them outside and beat the piss out of them.

In the canadian tournaments they want to promote sportsmanship pointswise, so everyone is on their best behavior. However it only really matters if you want to win "best over all". Straight up wins gets you "best general" and good painting wins you naturally "best painted". That way if you suck at painting, you can still win something, or if you dont build a roster just to blow everyone away with your cheese you can win best overall. Most of the fantasy players I noticed were gunning for best general, and had way character heavy rosters with annoying tactics and rules mongering. The 40k players were more mellow, but there is always one guy I end up playing that is a jerk-face. Thankfully I have beaten them in each case, and they cant say crap.

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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:48   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers

This topic comes up from time to time, but hasn't recently so I have no problem with doing it again as it's usually good for a few laughs. Just a note to everyone to try and keep their cool as this can sometimes be a bit of a touchy subject.

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Old 18 Apr 2008, 20:57   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
This topic comes up from time to time, but hasn't recently so I have no problem with doing it again as it's usually good for a few laughs. Just a note to everyone to try and keep their cool as this can sometimes be a bit of a touchy subject.

True that. I just like to laugh at them when they go down in flames.

Like the guy who tried to tell me I couldnt move charge his eldar scouts with my berzerk champions on steeds, because I declaired my charges before moving them as a cumpulsary move (kinda the same thing as the last guy I talked about). So I said fine, and did a normal move past them with the champions so next turn they could charge his back ranks instead and made a mess of his whole army. If he hadve let me charge the scouts they couldve tied me up long enough to get his grav tanks out of range or moved his elites in to engage. I was actually glad he rule lawyered me because I didnt want to charge the unit at all.
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Old 18 Apr 2008, 21:03   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers

I see it as two types of games.

Fun games and tournament games.

When ever I am playing a fun game I don't mind an occasional take back, or opps I forgot to to shot this moment. However, when I am paying money to play, and big dollar prizes are on the line, sorry you should now the rules. One thing about a tournament is keeping your head under pressure. That means remembering the order of shooting in your case, and remembering the objective in his case.

I consider myself a nice guy, and I normally get near perfect in sportsmanship at the tournaments I play in. But, I will not let you go back and redo things just because you forgot to do something. I will say if I forget something, you should not let me go back if we are playing a tournament.

I will say that you could have handled the situation a little better also. Remember you forgot the rules, which is an honest mistake, you had no right to expect him to allow you to go back and correct that mistake.

It was ok for you to hold him to every millimeter, but to basicly threaten him with bad sportsmanship of not allowing you to shot, was wrong in my opinion.

After saying that, I hate playing guys like that in a friendly pick up game. There is a time an place for rules lawyering.

I hope I did not come across harsh. I mean no ill will toward you, and I know were upset about this situation. Not tring to flame or anything like that. I am just hoping to allow you to see things from a different perspective.
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Old 19 Apr 2008, 05:19   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Close Encounters with Rules Lawyers

I always get first on sportsmenship, and it's won me some sweet cash too. I'm pretty good about the whole "oops I meant to do this" type of thing. But the worst is when someone scores low on you for sportsmenship when you correct them on a rule they should know.

I was playing my second game in a tourney against a nurgle marine player. He'd been out of the game for a while and this was about 5 months after 4th came out. He was still getting used to the new rules. Anyway, he had assaulted an unfortunate group of fire warriors. At the end of the assault I had no models in base contact. So I took my moral check and began to fall back. He then very abruptly said that he got to have the chance to cut me down. Then I told him that he couldn't because we were no longer locked in combat and so he could only consolidate. He questioned me so I pulled out my rule book and showed him. He then called over a judge to see if I was telling the truth. In the end it was given to me in my favour, but the game after that point went sour, especially after I laid waste to all his armour and all his daemons got ruined by pulse fire.

That would probably be the only tourney that I didn't get the sportsmenship for. People at my local shop are pretty good about things though. Last tourney my buddy showed up with an army that only had one painted model. So as a joke everybody gave him the highest score for best painted army. He was pretty surprised when they called his name to accept the award.
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