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Consolidation/Pile In questions
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 04:18   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Consolidation/Pile In questions

I haven't been doing this before, but after reading through it again, I'm not sure you can't - if you win combat but are still locked in combat with a unit because they haven't fled, can you still make a 3" consolidation move with your models before pile in occurs - or does the "locked in combat" prevent this movement?

Nezalhualixtlan, I've merged your two topics together as they both deal with similar subject matter (ie. what happens at the end of combat) - Fish Ead
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 08:24   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

No the locked in combat prevents the move you just pile in as normal
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 08:36   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

Yup you just pile in up to 6".
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 11:36   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

The only way you're not locked in combat is if a pile-in move won't get you in base-to-base with an opponent. Then both units are free to consolidate.
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 20:04   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Consolidation question

Well, let me bring up a few points that pointed me in the direction of thinking consolidation is perhaps intended even if you are still locked:

pg43 Sweeping Advances & Consolidation, second paragraph: "If the falling back unit no longer has any models in base contact with the victor, or if the victor has models still engaged in combat with other units which are not falling back, the victors do not get a chance to sweeping advance, but may still consolidate."

Then on the following page44: "The Victors of a close combat may move up to 3" in any direction to consolidate and recover an effective formation, or even engage new opponents."

So, we have on pg43 it being made clear that a unit that is still locked in combat with another unit may indeed consolidate if one unit they are fighting falls back. That seems to override what you guys are saying about not being able to consolidate just because you are locked in combat. Then on the following page it says nothing about not being able to consolidate due to being locked, just that if you win combat, which is something you can do without having your enemy fall back, that you can consolidate.

Now being that the consolidation moves in this case (non-massacre 3") would probably not take the unit out of pile in range, since that is 6" and would still need to occur after the consolidation, I'd say there are reasons to think that it is intended for the winner of the combat to be able to "recover an effective formation", or "engage a new unit" prior to pile in with a consolidation move without the loser having fallen back first.

What do you guys think? Is there anywhere else in the rules book that I'm missing a vital piece of information?

I also had a follow up question on consolidation, in case consolidation really can't be made if the enemy hasn't fallen back:
If your enemy is subject to "No Retreat!" pg48, rules and is outnumbered - they haven't fallen back, but then they are wiped out with the outnumbered wounds they take, do you still get to consolidate after that - would it be like a sweeping advance where you'd get a "massacre" consolidation?
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 20:15   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitestar333
The only way you're not locked in combat is if a pile-in move won't get you in base-to-base with an opponent. Then both units are free to consolidate.
That isn't correct. As quoted from pg 43 if the falling back unit no longer has any models in base contact the victor is no longer locked in combat.
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Old 15 Apr 2008, 21:09   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezalhualixtlan
Well, let me bring up a few points that pointed me in the direction of thinking consolidation is perhaps intended even if you are still locked:

pg43 Sweeping Advances & Consolidation, second paragraph: "If the falling back unit no longer has any models in base contact with the victor, or if the victor has models still engaged in combat with other units which are not falling back, the victors do not get a chance to sweeping advance, but may still consolidate."

Then on the following page44: "The Victors of a close combat may move up to 3" in any direction to consolidate and recover an effective formation, or even engage new opponents."
Intresting. I believe that the intent of this is that a large unit (like 30 ork boyz) that engaged more than one unit, and forced one of them to flee, may now move the unengaged models up to 3", while still in coherency with the squad, to better allow the now unengaged boyz to get into combat, either with the force the rest of the boyz are still fighting, or a new squad within 3" (which could be the falling back squad if they rolled poorly.) You cannot however move engaged models, so you could not use this to break off of combat with the squad that did not flee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezalhualixtlan
I also had a follow up question on consolidation, in case consolidation really can't be made if the enemy hasn't fallen back:
If your enemy is subject to "No Retreat!" pg48, rules and is outnumbered - they haven't fallen back, but then they are wiped out with the outnumbered wounds they take, do you still get to consolidate after that - would it be like a sweeping advance where you'd get a "massacre" consolidation?
It is not Like a "massacre" result, it IS a "massacre" result. All rules for a massacre apply here. (d6" consolidate, etc) Note, a massacre will only occur if ALL of the enemy are destroyed, as per the rule on page 43. If another squad is in combat with you, and it is not destroyed/fleeing then you apply the rules as discussed in the first half of your question.
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Old 16 Apr 2008, 20:28   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Consolidation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownKnight

Intresting. I believe that the intent of this is that a large unit (like 30 ork boyz) that engaged more than one unit, and forced one of them to flee, may now move the unengaged models up to 3", while still in coherency with the squad, to better allow the now unengaged boyz to get into combat, either with the force the rest of the boyz are still fighting, or a new squad within 3" (which could be the falling back squad if they rolled poorly.) You cannot however move engaged models, so you could not use this to break off of combat with the squad that did not flee.
Well, right, I wasn't thinking consolidation could likely be used to break off from combat - not that that would be something I'd just about ever want to do with my CC heavy Tyranids (I guess unless it was during my opponents melee phase, to get another charge from my movement phase, that sounds interesting) - but mostly because you'd have to be able to move all models in the unit outside of pile in range, if you can't pile in with any model then the combat would end, but the consolidation move would be 3" the pile in range is 6" so its unlikely unless mass carnage was involved that you'd be able to get out of combat.

But I found the rule that undoes all the stuff I was thinking through about this finally:

pg 36, Assault Phase Summary:
"4. Loser Checks Morale. The Loser has to pass a Morale check or fall back. If the loser passes the test go to step 7."

Thus if the loser passes their morale check, then you skip both the break off check, any consolidation moves, and interestingly Pile in as well according to this since Pile In is step 6 - something I've never done in all my games, we almost always did pile in moves for unegaged models regardless even when the loser made a successful morale check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownKnight
It is not Like a "massacre" result, it IS a "massacre" result. All rules for a massacre apply here. (d6" consolidate, etc) Note, a massacre will only occur if ALL of the enemy are destroyed, as per the rule on page 43. If another squad is in combat with you, and it is not destroyed/fleeing then you apply the rules as discussed in the first half of your question.
Cool, that's what I thought, but I was just a little unsure.
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Old 17 Apr 2008, 13:03   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Always Pile In at end of every Assault or only if loser fails morale check?

I'm seeing two conflicting statements by GW with regards to Pile In.

Rulebook Pg36 Assault Phase Summary: "4. Loser Checks Morale ... If the loser passes the test go to step 7."

of course step 7 is the rinse, wash, repeat step - but step 6 that it tells you to skip over is Pile In.

Except under the Pile In Moves section on pg44, it's pretty clearly stating that pile in moves occur "at the end of each assault phase"

So which is it, at the end of every assault phase, or only at the end of an assault phase in which the loser has failed their morale check?
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Old 17 Apr 2008, 13:26   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Always Pile In at end of every Assault or only if loser fails morale check?

Every assault phase.

If the loser fails the morale check then they flee. They either escape combat or are wiped out, therefore there's no combat to pile in to.
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