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Can you assault after firing ordnance?
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 06:30   #1 (permalink)
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Default Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Well... The only unit i can think of that would be able to at the moment is a defiler. But can you assault after firing an ordnance weapon?
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 09:10   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

walkers can fire after moving, so they should be able to charge.
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 09:15   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

I would say no; it doesn't feel right to me.
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 11:48   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
I would say no; it doesn't feel right to me.
Heh, true at that.
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 12:09   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40k Rulebook, page 29, Weapon Types, Ordinance Weapons, first paragraph
Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase.
It doesn't just feel wrong; it is wrong, according to the rules.
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 18:06   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Walkers may move, fire and then charge. Whether the weapon in question is a twin-linked lascannon or a battle cannon is irrelevant.

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Old 07 Apr 2008, 18:33   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40kenthusiast
Walkers may move, fire and then charge. Whether the weapon in question is a twin-linked lascannon or a battle cannon is irrelevant.

WRONG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40k Rulebook, page 29, Weapon Types, Ordinance Weapons, first paragraph
Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase.
It doesn't just feel wrong; it is wrong, according to the rules.
We have the page reference to prove otherwise. Why don't you read what has already been posted?
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 19:14   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Wargamer, I carefully read all that has been posted before I reply. In addition, as a player of the game, I'm certainly aware of page 29's descriptions of shooting types. It would be difficult to play the game without that knowledge.

Page 29 is the description of how units firing weapons behave. On the same page it notes that firing rapid fire weapons preclude charging into combat, as does firing heavy weapons.

If page 29 was the end all and be-all of 40k weapon/movement interactions terminators would be unable to rapid fire and then charge, and landspeeders would need to sit still to fire their assault cannons. Wraithlords wouldn't even be able to fire on the move. A few unit types, however, may override the ordinary rules that govern the firing of weapons and behave differently.

By and large, these are the units which go by different movement rules (SAP, vehicles, monstrous creatures, etc.) Walkers are, I believe, one such unit.

If someone with access to the rules could look up
1: The description of walkers in the vehicle section, with particular attention to how they move and fire

and

2: The rule which permits bikes and thousand sons (or other units that always count as stationary) to assault after rapid firing...I can recall that it is in an odd location in the BGB.

and I think it'll shed some light on the subject. If no one replies with an answer I'll check into it when I get home.
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 19:50   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40kenthusiast
Page 29 is the description of how units firing weapons behave. On the same page it notes that firing rapid fire weapons preclude charging into combat, as does firing heavy weapons.

If page 29 was the end all and be-all of 40k weapon/movement interactions terminators would be unable to rapid fire and then charge, and landspeeders would need to sit still to fire their assault cannons. Wraithlords wouldn't even be able to fire on the move. A few unit types, however, may override the ordinary rules that govern the firing of weapons and behave differently.

By and large, these are the units which go by different movement rules (SAP, vehicles, monstrous creatures, etc.) Walkers are, I believe, one such unit.

If someone with access to the rules could look up
1: The description of walkers in the vehicle section, with particular attention to how they move and fire

and

2: The rule which permits bikes and thousand sons (or other units that always count as stationary) to assault after rapid firing...I can recall that it is in an odd location in the BGB.

and I think it'll shed some light on the subject. If no one replies with an answer I'll check into it when I get home.
Page 29 makes CLEAR that you can`t assault after firing an ordnance weapon, which solves this question for me - NO, you can`t charge with your Defiler into CC after blasting me with your Battlecannon...

Note that all the exceptions to the rules (Terminators, Crisis Suits) are explicitely mentioned - and while it is true that this rule is not again repeated in the Vehicle-section, and also gives different vehicles different shooting rules after movement, it doesn`t say anything about assaulting after firing ordnance weapons - so we must assume that, as far as assaulting after firing Ordnance weapons are concerned. the general rule is still in effect; i.e. no assault possible.

EDIT: Page 63 (translated from German): "Rapid Fire, Heavy and Assualt weapons always count as stationary on a vehicle, even if it moved. If a walker uses these weapons, he can charge normally in the Assault phase" - no mentioning of Ordnancy weaponry - again, we must assume that the general ordnance-weaponry rule "No assault after firing" is in effect.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 07 Apr 2008, 20:04   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Can you assault after firing ordnance?

Okay then, let's have a look at this.

Quote 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 29, Weapon Types, Ordinance Weapons, first paragraph
Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase.
Quote 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 36, Declare Charges, Shooting and Assaulting, paragraph two
Note: Some units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.
Quote 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 53, Unit Type Rules, Bikes, Shooting
In addition, rapid fire and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn.
Quote 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 61, Vehicle Movement, Walkers
All walkers move in exactly the same way as infantry...
Quote 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 63, Vehicles and Shooting, Vehicle Weaponry, fourth paragraph
The normal restrictions for infantry moving, shooting and assaulting don't apply to weapons fitted to vehicles. This means that vehicle-mounted rapid fire and heavy weapons always count as stationary even if the vehicle moves and don't prevent a walker that fires them from charging in the following Assault phase.
Quote 6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 63, Vehicles and Shooting, Vehicles Moving and Shooting table
A walker may fire a single ordnance weapon whether it remains stationary or whether it moves (paraphrased).
Quote 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 75, Universal Special Rules, Slow and Purposeful
In addition to this, they are always treated as stationary when shooting, and never receive a bonus attack when charging into close combat.
Quote 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codex: Dark Angels, page 53, Armour, Terminator Armour, paragraph 2
...models in Terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons.
Sorry, would have quoted Codex: Space Marines but I can't find my copy right now. Still, this should be enough.


I do apologise in advance to any mods if this is too much information taken from any books. However, I feel it is necessary to do so to prove my opposing viewpoint, given the challenge.

So, from quote 4, a walker acts like infantry for the purpose of moving. From quote 6, a walker may move up to 6" and still fire an ordnance weapon. From quote 5, a walker may move up to 6" and fire a rapid fire weapon or heavy weapon as if it were stationary. However, quote 1 prevents it from assaulting after the fact. However, none of this overrides the fact that quote 1 prevents it from assaulting.

Bikes are explicitly allowed to assault after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons, due to quote 3. Also, models in Terminator armour are allowed to do the same, thanks to quote 8. Quotes 2 and 7 mean that models who are Slow and Purposeful are allowed to assault after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons. Sadly, as an Ordnance weapon is neither heavy nor rapid fire, quote 2 does not mean that a walker armed with one may assault after shooting it.

How's that?
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