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Ultimate Weapons
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 05:32   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Ultimate Weapons

We look at different weapons to help you make choices.

Just to kick off our subject i got a few cool statistics you could refer to.
Against 30 gretchins and 3 runtherds. A squad of 9 space marines and a sergeant.
Task 1. How many grots will die if the squad of marines(and sergeant) are armed with 8 boltguns, a heavy bolter and a flamer(altogether)?

Well, the 8 boltguns would kill 8.9 grots, if they were within 12". We find this simply by doing some well collected maths: 8 boltguns fire 16 shots. The marines have a BS4 so they need to roll a 3+ to hit (3,4,5 or 6). On a dice that's 4 out of 6 which is 2/3. So we can easily say '2/3 of the 16 shots fired hit there targets'. 2/3 X 16= 32/3=10.66*. 10.66* strength 4, AP5 shots hit the grots, who have a toughness of 2. So the shots would need to roll a 2+ on a dice (2,3,4,5,6), which is 5 out of the 6 possible rolls on a die. So 5/6 of the 10.66* shots hit and wound the grots. 5/6 X 10.66*= 8.88. So 8.88 shots successfully wound and kill 8.88 grots (there is no need to check armour saves as the boltguns are AP5).
The boltguns have a kill ratio of: 1boltgun kills 1.11 grots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownKnight
First off, please do not double post.

Secondly, it is impossible to calculate a flamer as you would need to know exactly where the enemy models are standing.

Third, Just WHO is "we" and "YOU"? You make it sound like you are helping us, then you ask us to do the work for you.

Fourth, please spell check your topics.

Finally, please explain what the point of this thread is? It just is not clear from how you begin what the point of it is.

I'm sorry for my bad spelling. Please, I'm only trying to help, as i just started and wanted to contribute some statistics on weapons.

Please do not bag-out my thread I'm only trying to help. And if you didn't see, i answered my own questions. And b.t.w it is very possible to calculate the damage a flamer can do.
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 05:42   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weopens

First off, please do not double post.

Secondly, it is impossible to calculate a flamer as you would need to know exactly where the enemy models are standing.

Third, Just WHO is "we" and "YOU"? You make it sound like you are helping us, then you ask us to do the work for you.

Fourth, please spell check your topics.

Finally, please explain what the point of this thread is? It just is not clear from how you begin what the point of it is.

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Old 04 Apr 2008, 05:51   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Oops.

My bad, I will improve my standards on this post.
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 06:23   #4 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weopens

Welcome to the forums!

Flamers do not roll to hit, Jerry. You just place the template. They hit automatically.

Spelling isn't a problem, as we have a built-in spell check. You should see the button for it next to "post" and "preview". Please note also that you can edit your posts. We would prefer it if you do that instead of posting more than once in a row. That is what BrownKnight means by "double-posting".

What you are trying to do is broadly referred to as "Mathhammer". It is a useful way to assess the relative probability of a unit doing a certain amount of damage. It helps to narrow it down a little more, though. You usually see it as a response within a thread on tactics. Having a thread dedicated to the idea alone might be a little too general.
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 06:26   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weopens

You are more than welcome to contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownKnight
First off, please do not double post.
I suggested this because the etiquette here is that you do not post more than once in a row, but instead you modify your post using the modify feature found at the bottom right of your posts. You can add you new info to the bottom of your last post, and it reads just as well.

I got in trouble for this myself not long ago. I am simply trying to help you not get into trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownKnight
Third, Just WHO is "we" and "YOU"? You make it sound like you are helping us, then you ask us to do the work for you.
I apologise for any perceived attitude on my part there, it did sound like you were asking others. I see now that you are not. That said, keep it up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Flamers do not roll to hit, Jerry. You just place the template. They hit automatically.
They also do not have part hits. Any model under the template, in part or in whole, is hit. The 4+ for part of a model is for blast weapons and large blast weapons.
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 07:33   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry
We compare different weapons to help YOU make choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry
Just to kick off our subject i got a few cool statistics you could refer to.
Against 30 gretchins and 3 runtherds.A squad of 9 space marines and a sergeant.
Task 1. How many grots will die if the squad of marines(and sergeant) are armed with 8 boltguns, a heavy bolter and a flamer(altogether)?
Insufficient information. What range are we dealing with here? More than 24", which means only the Heavy Bolter will be usable? Between 12" and 18", which means you either single-shot the Bolters and use the Heavy Bolter, or step forward and rapid fire (which is actually the right answer, if you`re just trying to cause as many damage as possible, especially since the Flamer might be in range this way)? Or are the Grots nearer than 12", when the only decision is between standing still and shooting the hell of them out, or charging into melee?

When I look at your initial post, you seem to want to compare weapons; but your given example completely fails to show any "comparison"; all you give us is an attempt of Mathhammer (with insufficient information to boot) - unless you want us to decide between 10 Marines and 30 Grots + Runtherds...

Mathhammer has been done to death; and even though I agree it can be useful, there have already long and exhaustive "number walls" been drawn up - I refer thee to Korills "Kills of the Crisis"-topic:
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=62088.0
That`s part III. Yes, there are two other topics like this. Just for Crisis Suits.

And, knowing this board, similar topics are sure to exist on the other army-specific boards.

Now, if you intended to make this a "decision" thread as in "30 Grots are standing 14" away from your ten Marines, armed with Boltguns and a Heavy Bolter; what do you do?", it would be helpful; but I DO suppose most members here have already a firm grasp on Mathhammer...

All you could help us with would be an example of "battlefield application" of Mathhammer, and not just the calculations themself.
OR you could write up an introduction to Mathhammer, explaing how you calculate probabilities properly.

Sorry to rain on your parade, I don`t want to dishearten you. You`re trying to be helpful, and that`s great. I`m just trying to remind you that you`re not inventing the wheel here.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 13:21   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weapons

Math-hammer, which I find to be of very very limited use in the first place, needs to be much more indepth and part of a more rounded analysis.



First of all, you're going to have to analyze all situations, long range, mid range, short range, against GEQs, MEQs, TEQs, Light Vehicles, Medium Vehicles, Heavy Vehicles, all different kinds of toughness.

And then you have to take their cost into account, there are some good math-hammer analysis with decent cost-effectiveness ratios, but those are few and far between.



Sorry, I'm not bagging out this thread for the sake of bagging it out, but I am pointing out, in a blunt manner (you'll learn it's my way, as well as the way of a few other veterans around here) what you'll need to add to this thread before it becomes remotely useful.





Also, please, please, please, PLEASE properly capitalize and punctuate your sentences. And try to use proper grammar and spelling. This is for your benefit as much as it is for ours'. Because you won't be taken seriously if you post in half arsed chat speak.

And lastly, please do not double or triple post. There is an edit function on the top of each post. Use that instead. Double or triple posting not only looks ugly but is also bad etiquette as you're constantly bumping up your own thread.
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Old 04 Apr 2008, 14:31   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ultimate Weapons

Since I'm such a nice guy Jerry, I consolidated some of your posts together to make things a lil more neat (plus, I just wanted the thread to look nice and clean). The others have already warned you about double posting, so I'm not going to hassle you further. Hopefully you've learned your lesson.

About the thread itself, I agree that you probably should compare your stats to something else, or at least do the stats for multiple weapons. I recommend you math-out a few different situations before you post it.
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