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The War in Heaven- speculations
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 16:15   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default The War in Heaven- speculations

So, I've been reading up on my Eldar fluff- its been a while since Tau stuff and Ork re releases have had me all in a tizzy- but as I was reading the new codex I came across the mention of the War in Heaven.

Now, keep in mind that the new book doesn't talk at all about Old Ones, not really and no where near the depth i was hoping for after the Necron book. Instead the Eldar past, stretching back hundreds of thousands of years, has become myth and has applied this kind of 'legendary' language which makes it sound like greek history- or something out of Warhammer fantasy.

Okay- so, specifically, when they talk about the Eldar Gods it seems that these gods might be actual races that took part in galactic macro history. Khain gets angry at Vaul after he doesn't make 100 swords for him, this results in the war in heaven. Now, the War in Heaven is supposed to be the battle between Necrontyr and their newly formed C'tan overlords against the Old One's and their psychic tuned races. Is it possible that Vaul is in fact representative of the C'tan in Eldar lore? In addition, each Eldar God is the 'lighter' side of each aspect of the Chaos gods (who gained sentience as a direct result of Old One tampering).

Could it be that the Eldar Gods were all the daemonic light end of the spectrum of the Chaos Gods and that Vaul is representative of the C'tan or, perhaps, a single C'tan? After all the Outsider was imprisoned within a Dyson Sphere and Vaul chained to his Anvil.

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Old 27 Mar 2008, 16:28   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

I had not heard that idea before. If you wanted to suggest that Vaul was the Void Dragon, he could also have been chained to Mars. It would require a little retuning of how we look at the C'Tan, though. The usual argument is that they are creatures of the Material universe, and so don't mesh with the idea of the Eldar Gods as warp entities.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea that the Eldar "Gods" have been skewed quite a bit by myth and legend. So the Eldar don't really know much more about them than what the Harlequins portray. Most polytheistic "gods" in history are probably based on regular humans who were impressive or lucky enough to be remembered the right way.

I think it might help to make the Eldar a little more complex. They obviously use elements of the C'Tan in their culture. You can see it in the Fire Dragons and the Dark Reapers. I still think you see it in the comparisons between the Laughing God and the Deceiver. The Eldar have always been at war with both the powers of the Warp and the most fundamental powers of the material realm. So it would not surprise me if their gods contained elements of both.
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 22:31   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

If Vaul were the Void Dragon, why would he make Khaine swords that could be used against him?
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 22:37   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

As I said, it is mythology. If you take the approach that it isn't literal, there are a number of possible interpretations, including deceit.
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 23:13   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

True, but aren't the Yngir the C'Tan? Be a bit odd to have the same gods twice, but with completely different attributes.
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 23:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Archais
True, but aren't the Yngir the C'Tan? Be a bit odd to have the same gods twice, but with completely different attributes.
I have a book you should read, but unfortunately I can't even tell you what it is without spoiling the best part of it. :-\

But it actually deals with something very similar, where several cultures share different sets of supposedly "warring" gods, but which are actually all drawn from the same original story. The thing with the C'Tan, the Warp Gods, and the Eldar Gods is that there are a lot of strange similarities among them. We have two smiths, two tricksters, and two gods of death. We have two gods of war with strangely similar imagery.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 00:55   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

It is a little strange. Additionally- the Eldar Gods could probably manifest into daemons and thus work in the material universe in order to combat the C'tan.

Additionally, if the old Eldar Gods (being the noble aspects of the chaos gods) eventually were killed- it would make sense why the Warp is so out of balance and crazy constantly.

In regards to why the C'tan might ever serve the eldar gods- well, in a way you could think that the Necrontyr being driven all the way back to their home system after their first attempt at a war could have represented a kind of fealty.
But your right, we would need to know more information on the whole subject- remember that we're thinking about this in human terms which means in a very linear fashion- the Eldar could consider their myths to have multiple meanings. Who knows. But the connections are many and strong- its worth debating.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 01:57   #8 (permalink)
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I like what Dawn of War did with the C'Tan. Rather than being the Gods themselves, the C'Tan we see on the tabletop are avatars of more powerful entities, much like Greater Daemons but with a closer link to their source.

You could recast the War in Heaven as a battle between the Eldar and the original Necrontyr, with the Gods of reality and the warp manifesting themselves as parts of complex plots and stratagems, much like Greek mythology.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 05:42   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

Another possible explanation is that the C'tan didn't always get along with each other. Maybe Vaul cut a deal with khaine with the swords? In exchange to put some payback on some other c'tan?

What I really hate to say though is that their are some striking similarities between the bloody handed god and the c'tan. Their's the whole molten body deal (living metal?) and from eldar mythology Khaine was kicking their ancestors D'yi back then. I mean, were all the Eldar Gods really the gods of the eldar, or were a few of them C'tan and the other few the Old ones?

And most importantly, when the heck do we get to hear more about the krorks?
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 07:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The War in Heaven- speculations

no gods were old ones- most of the fluff on them is very strict.

as per krorks- look to your RT books and its all there. They were awesome- then they made biological weapons which adapted to never stop what it was bred for- i'm gonna let you make the assumptions past that.
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