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What would make tankshock worthwhile?
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 06:57   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default What would make tankshock worthwhile?

Currently, Tankshot is pretty much worthless. Most armies have the leadership to pass the morale test, which means you don't get to kill anyone. Almost anyone worth their salt is going to know not to risk a unit in death or glory unless the unit has alot of melta bombs or 'fists. Most tank shocks arn't going to be all that rewarding.

What if it was changed? What if the tank forced a hit on each model it forced out it's way? I was actually thinking of a S8 hit with no armor saves if the model fails an Initiative test. This would make it very hard to run over the agile Eldar and space marines, but easy to run over guardsmen, orks and tau. S10 could also be used. I'm mainly not sure if an Ork boss can be killed by running him over. Those orks are ridiculously tough.

But would that make tankshock suitable? Perhaps those hits could be prevented by doing a death or glory. You can either accept one death or risk multiple deaths on the unit.

I just hate the current rules. I've tried to tankshock and just watched as the enemy doesn't use DoG and dodges happily away. And I think it's just ridiculous that a huge tank can be dodged about that easily. Tanks grind up and kill infantry who don't get out of their way. I'm not saying that tanks should be infantrybane(infact, most infantry squads can take out tanks, provided they're equipped with Krak grenades or the like) but that they should be able to be a little scarier when used against infantry in the open.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 07:28   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

It would make it overpowered. Initiative would need to be heavily weighted in model cost, as otherwise this would be far too effective. There were rules for ramming in 2nd Edition, but they really didn't work very well.

I think the point is that the infantry are getting out of the way. 40k represents vehicles as moving at "combat speed", where they don't really have the precision steering required to outmaneuver infantry up close.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 07:45   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

Yeah, but currently there's no way for vehicles to really do any damage to enemy infantry. And most tanks seemed to have been able to overrun infantry positions and crush infantry who don't fall back. Even foxholes can be crushed, by running over them or clipping edges(you don't crush the foxhole, but instead cause it to collapse). This requires a concentrated amount of time from a vehicle, but I have seen games where a single tank attempted to run over enemy units, and did absolutely nothing.

Again, I think the current rules are a bit poor, what would make tankshock worthwhile? Because currently, most things either DoG and kill the tank, or dance around it all game.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 14:01   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

I completely agreee, tank shock's current rules set do not do justice in anyway to the actual power and speed of 60tons of metal comming at you.

I like the idea of initiative test to determine if they take the hit or not, but also, i believe that the initiative test should only be made for models within 8 inches or so as to represent that models furthur away would have more time to react. str 8 hit no armour saves makes sense. also, the unit getting tankshocked, has to take a morale check if any model in the unit takes a wound, even if they are fearless and such.

even then the rules of combat against tanks need to be reworked... if a tank has moved 6 inches or more not only does the unit attacking need 6's to hit but also, all models in base to base with the tank should take hits at some strength and some ap value.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 14:14   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

I just know from my father's report of tank usage in the 1970s when he was in one (Ranger, Special Forces, Green Beret, Paratrooper) that they glide through forests without even a shudder - like OVER the trees. They just plow them down. And they move really fast - they can open up to ridiculous speeds like any other vehicle can, it just tears up the roads so you never see them use it in peacetime or whatever.

So the idea that in the 41st millennium a tank-shock is nigh useless makes me sad. Even though as a Tau/Eldar player, I'd mostly be at the receiving end... isn't that the whole point of Death or Glory, that you suicide to save your allies? It defeats the point - no one is going to die for their comrades (which are, after all, the basic unit and motivating force of any military - your close allies) if they aren't in any danger! People want to live, they use DoG tactics to save their military kin not for strategic purposes!

I know the game is really fantasy with sci-fi trappings, but still. It's supposed to feel gritty, and in the modern West we should have some understanding of how people react in combat. After all, the majority of the English speaking world (numerically speaking: I love you New Zealanders but there's more New Zealish sheep than New Zealish people) has been mired in Iraq and Afghanistan... If you haven't heard war stories by now from recent vets, you must be quite young or hiding under a rock.

What motivates members of a unit? The other members of that unit. Unit cohesion is the building block. Nobody cares about anything but their buddies when it comes down to combat, no matter how indoctrinated they are. It's about protecting your own people. This is human nature. This is the reason they made up the DoG rule in the first place! People are willing to make insane moves to save their own, even at the loss of their own life. No risk, then they don't do it.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 14:46   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

I agree with you that the rules need to change, and hopefully in 5th edition we will see that. The only real problem is looking at it from a play testing standpoint. Most engineers, weather electromechanical or a gaming system engineer don't realize the general publics ability to horribly break the best laid plans. What I mean by this, is that as dumbed down an ineffective as tank shock is, their have been multiple people who have made posts about trying to use a piranha squadron to surround a unit and tank shock into the middle in order to cause the unit to be crushed no matter where they go. The rules don't really allow for that, but you can see a Mech Tau army based on ramming the enemy into oblivion. 2 or 3 units of Piranha a few devilfish and 3 tanks, and you can just roll over the enemy. It just needs to be balanced, and play tested many, many times.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 15:22   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamekanik
I agree with you that the rules need to change, and hopefully in 5th edition we will see that. The only real problem is looking at it from a play testing standpoint. Most engineers, weather electromechanical or a gaming system engineer don't realize the general publics ability to horribly break the best laid plans. What I mean by this, is that as dumbed down an ineffective as tank shock is, their have been multiple people who have made posts about trying to use a piranha squadron to surround a unit and tank shock into the middle in order to cause the unit to be crushed no matter where they go. The rules don't really allow for that, but you can see a Mech Tau army based on ramming the enemy into oblivion. 2 or 3 units of Piranha a few devilfish and 3 tanks, and you can just roll over the enemy. It just needs to be balanced, and play tested many, many times.

Hahaha, that's brilliant
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 16:06   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

I don't think "realism" is in the vocabulary of most Games Workshop rule-makers. 'Specially since the game has 8-foot tall superhumans wielding 75.C guns that fire explosive, depleted uranium shells at space-elves wield more guns that fire mono molecular shards of glass.

And that would make tank-shock overpowered against armies that don't have units that can tank-shock back.
Like Necrons! Ever try to see a monolith run infantry over!? It just doesn't work out!
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 17:06   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRayne
I don't think "realism" is in the vocabulary of most Games Workshop rule-makers. 'Specially since the game has 8-foot tall superhumans wielding 75.C guns that fire explosive, depleted uranium shells at space-elves wield more guns that fire mono molecular shards of glass.
Correction. Depleted deuterium. And that, boys and girls, is waste from radioactive reactions, and is a slightly heavier form of hydrogen.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 18:09   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: What would make tankshock worthwhile?

My 2 cents worth :

Make each model touched by the tank make a int. check or die. As to the fear of skimmers, if it doesn't block line of sight it cannot crush things. Units tankshocked by skimmers would check for pinning instead.

Point of reference, While in the Marine Corps I observed an LCAC go over a op and other than being badly shaken the Marines were ok, and extremely POed :-*
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