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Rules Lawyering Definition?
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 22:26   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Rules Lawyering Definition?

Can someone define this for me. I've had this adjective leveled against me for pointing out that I can nominate a heavy weapon carrier to take an independent save since I wounded the unit 2 million times from one unit's firing (marker light guided rapid firing fish of fury). I've also been called this since I pointed out that all of a unit's shooting occurs simultaneously, I can nominate a shield drone to take the las cannon as opposed to one of my broadsides.

I'm beginning to believe that people who level charges of rules lawyering simply don't know their rules and get angry when some one tells them what the rules are at inopportune times.
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 22:56   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

That wouldn't be rules lawyering to me. To me rules lawyering is taking a rule that has ambiguous meaning and twisting it to your best advantage.

In the first rule your sighting it's pretty clear. If enough wounds are inflicted to cause one to each model, you can nominate which models in the unit have to take a wound, hence taking out a heavy weapon. In regards to the shield drone and Broadside, not up on my Tau rules but I believe it is that it applies to the majority armour save as per the mixed armour rules. So if there were more broadsides than shield drones, your broadside would take the hit rather than you assigning it to a shield drone. The shield drone taking the hit if there is more drones than broadsides. The only time you getting to assign it is when the numbers are equal. For example, two drones and two broadsides. Unless of course they all have the same armour save in which case you are free to assign at any time.
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 23:18   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Shield Drones save becomes that of the "host".

That is just pointing out the rules. It is not your fault that they don't read the codex.

An example of Rules Lawyering is saying that every Weapon Destoyed Hit on a Monolith gives it +1 shot.

In case you are wondering the rules says weapon destroyed reduces the number of shots by "-1".

Going back to algebra reducing means to subtract.

If you subtract a negative number you add it instead.

So Reducue by "-1" becomes +1 shot.

That is being a rules lawyer.
Another example is arguing in a friendly game that a model is destroyed because it is with still with in an inch by 1/32". Actually had someone try that one on me.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 00:02   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Exactly. Rules Lawyering refers to the conniving sort of lawyers that you see in cop shows, the ones that give the legal profession it's bad reputation. It refers to a lawyer who does not just follow the law, but actually attempts to bend it to their own will. Thus a "Rules Lawyer" is someone who tries to bend the rules of the game in the manner that some have explained. Simply pointing out a clear rule does not make one a rules lawyer. Using bad wordings and shoddy proofreading in an attempt to gain an advantage does.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 04:38   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Rules lawyering to me is taking ambiguous rules (and there are far too many of these, unfortunately), and interpreting it in a way that is advantageous to the lawyer but doesn't make any sense otherwise. I can come up with a couple of examples from the Tau that I play.

Trying to claim that a skimmer moved exactly 6 inches so it can still fire its weapons but moved far enough to downgrade penetrating hits as a Skimmer Moving Fast.

Better yet, interpreting "broadsides must take one support system" as "they must take at least one, but can take more if they feel like."
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 05:00   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

reading "increases the model's save by +1" and arguing a 5+ save becomes 6+ instead of 4+ would be rules-lawyering. They don't break the rules, just take advantage of GW's (relatively) sloppy rule phrasings. However, things like Torrent of Fire, assaulting vehicles, hiding behind a piece of area-terrain, etc... aren't rules-lawyering. They're called reading the rules.

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Trying to claim that a skimmer moved exactly 6 inches so it can still fire its weapons but moved far enough to downgrade penetrating hits as a Skimmer Moving Fast.
Unless I'm mistaken, it flat-out says you need to move atleast 6" to gain the Skimmer Moving Fast.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 12:22   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

right, and to still fire everything without needing to be fast you can move UP TO 6".

so if you move exactly 6" you go barely fast enough to be fast and slow enough to fire everything.

I'm pretty sure the rule says you have to move OVER 6" though...

Anyway we (Tau) have multi-trackers for this nonsense so it's not really an issue.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 13:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Rules-lawyer is an insult that's typically addressed to anyone who knows the rules better than you do.

Powergamer is similar - it's an insult used on anyone who is playing a more competative list than you.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 13:35   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeard
Rules-lawyer is an insult that's typically addressed to anyone who knows the rules better than you do.

Powergamer is similar - it's an insult used on anyone who is playing a more competative list than you.
And this is the sort of definitions that a Rules-lawyer / Powergamer provide. :


A Rules Lawyer is someone who knows the wording, but not the meaning of the rules.

For example, the Necron rulebook says that WBB is negated by weapons "Double the target's Toughness." A Rule Lawyer would, by application of simple logic, declare that a Str 9 or Str 10 weapon does not ignore a Warrior's WBB roll, because it is not exactly double the target's toughness.

The term "Rule Lawyer" can also be applied to people who are insanely strict in casual settings. For example, in our gaming club, people very rarely enforce the exact rules on casualty removal (ie: they can come from anywhere in the squad), and Torrent of Fire is virtually never enforced. As such, someone who insists on playing to the letter of the rules in that environment is a Rules Lawyer.

Rule Lawyers should not be confused with the arseholes who decide that Size 3 Area Terrain is now Size 2 because it benefits him more, or that you can Daisy Chain WBB rolls; those people are called "cheating little gobshites."


A Powergamer, by extension, is someone who is largely clueless about anything but "winning", and totally ignore Rule 0 in favour of the non-existant rule of "as long as I'm happy, it doesn't matter".
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 14:22   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Rules Lawyering Definition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
The term "Rule Lawyer" can also be applied to people who are insanely strict in casual settings. For example, in our gaming club, people very rarely enforce the exact rules on casualty removal (ie: they can come from anywhere in the squad), and Torrent of Fire is virtually never enforced. As such, someone who insists on playing to the letter of the rules in that environment is a Rules Lawyer.
Torrent of Fire is a well-designed rule, clearly added to the game to discourage min-maxed squads (a hallmark of a "power-gamer"). I fail to see how using a rule that's not even vaguely misinterpretable, qualifies someone as a rules-lawyer.

And, this is exactly what I meant when I said they're insults, thrown about to try and bend the gaming environment to your favour. If I label you a Rules Lawyer, that has negative connotations. Regardless of why you're applying it, this label makes the labelled player look bad to others. It applies pressure saying "don't do what you're doing."

But, in the case of Torrent of Fire, the rule is well-designed, and well-written. It's not confusing, and it serves a purpose from the game-design standpoint. So, by calling someone who invokes the Torrent of Fire rule a Rules-lawyer, you actually encourage min-max squads, because you've applied pressure to remove one of the designed checks on such squads.

Labeling other people, in any way, is a childish, immature approach to human interaction. If you think your opponent is misinterpreting a rule, talk with them. If you find that either you, or your opponent, are playing "too competatively" then that's a failure to adequately express what you expect from a game. It doesn't mean that your opponent is a power gamer. It means that you both failed to communicate your expectations. Rule 0 has nothing to do with it. I've played many highly-competative games and both my opponent and I have enjoyed ourselves, and I've also played many not-so-competative games, where we have also enjoyed ourselves. Because, we both knew, prior to designing our armies, what our expectation was. The problem occurs when one player expects a competative game and the other does not.

(Note - none of this endorses cheating. Making up rules, changing terrain definitions mid-game, etc - I agree with Wargamer - that's outright cheating and should not be tolerated. )
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