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Get's Hot - which statistics to use?
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 00:08   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

A couple questions on Gets Hot weapons. Perhaps I've been playing it wrong. I did a couple searches but couldn't seem to find an applicable topic.

But when resolving a Get's Hot misfire - does the weapon's AP value count against any potential armor saves? For example, an AP4 Gets Hot weapon misfires - would a 3+ armor save get a roll while a 5+ save would not? Or would both cases get an armor save (ignoring the weapon's statistics). My understanding was that it counted as the weapon hitting the firer.

Also, the rule says specifically "armor save" by this I'm sure it means armor and invulnerable saves - but is this incorrect? From my understanding invulnerable saves could always be used in place of armor saves unless specifically negated.

Thanks in advance,
Em
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 00:14   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

Gets hot weapons that overheat have no AP value. They simply cause a wound on the carrier.

As for the armour save question;

I'd imagine armour or invulnerable saves would work, however I don't think you could take a cover save, since those only work against shooting hits.

A little more research might be requried, but i'm eating dinner now and my LRB is upstairs in a bag.
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 00:15   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

nah,, or we would have more space marine deaths.

It is true that the weapon may overheat...but its more like burning your hands to a degree that your armor either protects you, or your burned hands have rendered you a casualty (plasma burns hurt...MEDIC, get the cream!)

in addition to not being able to shoot that shot, theres a chance you can become a casualty, an addition to the pts expense of the weapon...they will not consider ap.

I wouldnt have much issue in letting people use inv saves, statisticaly they are often worse then armor saves. (space marines usually at best get a 4+)
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 00:44   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

Couple quick things

Just because a shot overheats doesn't mean it automatically misses. For example a space marine chaplain with a combi plasma gun has a BS of 5. He fires and rolls a 5 and a 2 to hit. Both shots do hit, however since two shots were fired the roll of 2 triggers an overheat.

Now he must make an armour save, since he has to roll an armour save he can now choose wether to use his save, or his invulnerable save. Since his power armour grants him a 3+ save, wereas his rosarius grants him a 4+ he opts to use his regular armour save value.
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 01:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

The rulesbook specifically states that after misfiring "the model must make an Armour Save or it suffers a wound." Since the most prevalent "Gets-hot" weapons are Plasmas, with an AP2, no model without an invulnerable save would get a chance to make a save. Therefore, it appears to me that in the case of "Gets-hot" weapons, all models with an armor save get to take it (even those with 5+ saves like Imperial Guard), thus disregarding the AP of the weapon.

Also, the term "Armor Save" refers to both invulnerable and regular Armor Saves.
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 02:12   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

I second that; 'suffers a wound' is used also in Dangerous Terrain tests, or when you're losing a melee and are outnumbered, whereas you can save. If the model in question would get hit with AP2, they'd specify that. If the rules don't say specifically that you're not allowed to take a save, you're allowed. Taking a cover save against 'Gets Hot!' would be against the common sense, but it is difficult for me to find anything in the RAW to support that.
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 06:22   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

Well, the more pressing issue right now with the advent of Plasma-wielding Plague Marines and Snazzgun-totting Flash Gitz is: Can I use Feel no Pain against Plasma Burns?

I`d say yes, since you can use FnP against all wounds apart fm the exceptions mentioned...

But, again, that`s just me, and I`ve commanded Pague Marines and will command Flash Gitz, so I might not be the most objective one ion this...

Discuss! ;D

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 10:35   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

Short answer is yes; FNP applies.
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 10:56   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

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Originally Posted by davidgr33n
Since the most prevalent "Gets-hot" weapons are Plasmas, with an AP2, no model without an invulnerable save would get a chance to make a save.
Logical - but not rules applicable. Firearms of LatD armies are a Get's Hot weapon with a crappy AP and Ork Shootas may be upgraded to have Get's Hot with mediocre AP scores. Simply arguing that the most prevalent version of the Gets Hot rule makes a pattern to follow, does not answer the question from a rules perspective.

The specific entry says "the weapon has overheated and injured the model firing it." (my emphasis) So RAW suggests, IMO, that the weapons statistics are used. For example, a T3 character wounded by a S7 Gets Hot weapon would be subject to Instant Death. A T3 character with a Sv of 4+ who is wounded by S7 AP2 Gets Hot weapon would be subject to Instant Death with no Armor save.

Quote:
Also, the term "Armor Save" refers to both invulnerable and regular Armor Saves.
In this case or in all cases? That's a rather broad statement to use. After all, if a weapon (like a power weapon) "Ignores armor saves" then it does not also ignore Invulnerable Saves. So we are left wondering if a) the designers intended only for Armor Saves to be applicable to Gets Hot, b) the designers overlooked the wording and any save applies, c) we simply apply the rule on p25 that lets players choose the save they want to use (obviously the most straightforward choice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Smirnov
If the model in question would get hit with AP2, they'd specify that. If the rules don't say specifically that you're not allowed to take a save, you're allowed. Taking a cover save against 'Gets Hot!' would be against the common sense, but it is difficult for me to find anything in the RAW to support that.
Speaking to the AP2 comment, why would they specify that? Not all Gets Hot weapons are AP2. Now, if you meant to say that the rules would have specified if the AP value applied - then I agree, they should have. However, the rules do say that it is the weapon that injured the model firing it - not the Gets Hot rule (as it is with the Dangerous Terrain rule - that is to say that the point of origin of the wound in the terrain rule is the rule itself - not some weapon or model).

Also, on the Cover Save issue, p25 under "More than one save" clearly states that it is the player's choice which save to use - thus you could, according to RAW, get a cover save against Plasma.

I'm sorry to be so argumentative on this - but, from my opinion, the rule on AP / S from Gets Hot misfires is ambiguous. I would certainly love for it to work out that my Plague Marines can stop dying in droves due to misfires. But it doesn't seem to add up to me
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Old 15 Jan 2008, 11:13   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Get's Hot - which statistics to use?

in this case though we are not talking about the projectile from the weapon hitting the user, so using the AP of the weapon makes no sense to me. I think of it like accidentally grabbing the hot barrel of a gun. it makes no sense to me that you would be denied armor saves from a hot weapon.
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