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question about stealthy units
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 14:02   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default question about stealthy units

Yesterday my brother(eldar with harlequins) and I(tau with stealth suits) were discussing warhammer strategy and eventually got to talking about one of our friends who plays imperial guard. He is probably going to get the new apocalypse 3 basilisk pack for Christmas so we started to discuss ways to approach those.

My brother argues that even though artillery models do not need line of sight to fire upon their target, they do need to take the semi-night-fight test, that is taken when attacking units like tau stealth teams and eldar harlequins with a shadowseer present, to see the unit to fire at it. I , on the other hand, think that if they don't need line of sight, they don't need to take the test when firing at stealthy units. Can units hidden by night fight rules, or something very similar, in non night fight games, hide from models that don't require line of sight to fire upon their target?

From that argument spawned another argument. Do the acute senses/night vision special rules allow units to reroll their sight test against stealthy units or does that only work for standard night fight rules used in night fight games?
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 14:54   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: question about stealthy units

Here's my 2 canadian Cents on the topic.

I believe your brother is right. Because, Stealth shield (and similar gear) is a technology that hides your unit from sight/sensor. Although the Basilisk doesn't need line of sight, it needs to know that there is a unit there to be able to fire. An argument in favor of this is the following: Any unit can disregard an stealth unit to shoot at a unit further away without doing a priority test (They simply do not know that the stealth unit is there) thus implying that they are totally undetected.

So, personally, even without line of sight, I think the player is required to roll to see if he 'detects' the stealthy unit before shooting, since even with indirect fire/artillery you cannot aim at empty space, you need a lock on a target.

As for the Night vision/Acute sense rules, I,m not sure if it applies only to Night fighting or if it could be applied to Stealth unit.

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Old 23 Dec 2007, 15:37   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: question about stealthy units

Boneguard has made a good point on the first query: I would recommend you speak a GW staff member and see what they think.

As for the Acute Senses, I would say they do detect 'Stealth' units easier, as in the Daemonhunters FAQ it says that Acute Senses works against the Grey Knights Shrouding rule, which has a similar affect.
I am 90% certain about this, as the whole point of Acute Senses is that the unit could notice footprints coming out of nowhere, patches of distorted Air etc.
I would say yes, Acute Senses works against stealth.
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 15:57   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: question about stealthy units

An indirect fire weapon still has to roll for target priority if it is applicable. (if another unit is closer than the one youre shooting at)

You still have to roll nightfight, BUT if the roll is passed, nothing unusual happens, however, a failed roll adds one (1) die to the roll for scatter.

I have no idea for the acute senses rules... You have to speak with the game managers or GW staff...
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 15:59   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: question about stealthy units

OK , lets break it up into the 2 separate entities it is .

Stealth Suits - Use Night Fight as per the BGB ( pg 27 of Codex:Tau Empire and Night Fight rules as per BGB pg 84 ) . This means that the Bassies can indeed shoot at them , and being vehicles never take Target Priority tests in the first place . However , there are rules pertaining to Ordnance/Barrage weapons on pg 84 of the BGB .

Acute Senses will work as well .

Harlequins - No . The Veil of Tears rule , whilst looking like the Night Fight rule , is in fact , not . Due to a) The required D6's are multiplied by less and b) Night Fight is not mentioned anywhere in any form in the entry on pg 49 of Codex:Eldar . Please note that the rule specifically states " any unit wishing to Target the squad must roll for the distance . In this case , Bassies need to do so as they are Targetting them , even though its more like Lobbing HE death at their general vicinity .

This means Acute Senses will not allow a re-roll either .

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Old 23 Dec 2007, 16:06   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: question about stealthy units

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruton
My brother argues that even though artillery models do not need line of sight to fire upon their target, they do need to take the semi-night-fight test, that is taken when attacking units like tau stealth teams and eldar harlequins with a shadowseer present, to see the unit to fire at it. I , on the other hand, think that if they don't need line of sight, they don't need to take the test when firing at stealthy units. Can units hidden by night fight rules, or something very similar, in non night fight games, hide from models that don't require line of sight to fire upon their target?
No, your brother is incorrect. Barrage weapons don't need to take the test to fire at units at night, they must instead roll an extra D6 for scatter. The rules for Stealth Suits states the exact same thing. However, the rules for Harlequins is a bit different. I believe no unit may fire upon them if they are not within the distance. You'll have to have Eldar player check that, as my codex is missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruton
From that argument spawned another argument. Do the acute senses/night vision special rules allow units to reroll their sight test against stealthy units or does that only work for standard night fight rules used in night fight games?
No, it only works for standard Night Fight. For one, Acute Senses allows them to reroll only a distance check if under the Night Fight Special Rules for the entire scenario. Acute Senses only works if the Night Fight Special Rules are in effect. So the mission must have the Night Fight rules to be able to meet the criteria to use Acute Senses.

However, going by how it is worded, it does seem that, since Stealth Suits gain no extra advantage if under the effects of Night Fight, units with Acute Senses can reroll the check then, but only if the scenario is using the Night Fight rules. It's disputable. Again, with Harlequins I do not believe this works, but an Eldar player will have to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by executioner
An indirect fire weapon still has to roll for target priority if it is applicable. (if another unit is closer than the one youre shooting at)
Incorrect. Barrage weapons never have to test to see if they must fire at the nearest enemy. Straight from the BGB, page 31.

Quote:
Originally Posted by executioner
You still have to roll nightfight, BUT if the roll is passed, nothing unusual happens, however, a failed roll adds one (1) die to the roll for scatter.
Again, incorrect. Barrage weapons fire as normal, they just add an extra D6 for scatter. Page 84.
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