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Turn? What turn?
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 10:42   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Turn? What turn?

Hi,

This problem might look insanely stupid at first glance, but I still need the answer for my entire gaming group.

We have been playing WH40K for about a year now. I haven't played that may battles myself, maybe 30 or so, but most of them were +3000 points. If you count other players from the group, there would be maybe 100 battles altogether. Therefore I consider us rather experienced with the game, and not really likely to ask about the basics... Still, I have to ask, because recently we started having some doubts about how turns look like.

When we started playing, all of us instinctively assumed the folllowing pattern: player A moves, then player B moves, then player A shoots, then player B shoots, then player A assaults, then player B assaults, combat is resolved, end of turn. But recently Max Smirnov, being a rulebookworm like him, discovered certain paragraphs which suggest - just suggest - that the order might be different: player A moves, then shoots, then assaults, and only then player B moves, then shoots, then assaults.

Could you please tell us once and for all, which game structure is the right one? We surely hope it's how we do that, because making the player perform all his actions in a row would be seriously dumbing the game down and taking away much of its strategy aspect (goodbye swift manoeuvres).

Thanks in advance for your answer.
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 10:47   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

Player A moves, shoots, assaults.
Player B moves, shoots, assaults.

Rinse and repeat.

Note that this makes certain units much more effective - Crisis Battlesuits, Eldar Jetbikes, Assault units, and the like.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 11:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

That came as a real shock to us (half of the group knows already). Now the game seems quite unbalanced, as you cannot react to what your opponent is doing, which - as I said - takes away most of the actual planning. And now there is really no point in going second, as you can't maneuvre anyway.
I could go on about how stupid it is, but it's not going to do much good, does it? :/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 11:19   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarius Scorch
That came as a real shock to us (half of the group knows already). Now the game seems quite unbalanced, as you cannot react to what your opponent is doing, which - as I said - takes away most of the actual planning. And now there is really no point in going second, as you can't maneuvre anyway.
I could go on about how stupid it is, but it's not going to do much good, does it? :/
I disagree. The game as it is takes MUCH more forethought than just always "reacting to what the enemy just did". You have to think ahead not just one phase, but three - movement, shooting, and assault. Tactical decisions become much more important, as are ploys, decoys and the like. Mistakes are much more devastating, as well.

Imagine you overlooked an enemy unit (DE, for example) which is about to charge your fireline.
He moves out into the open and disembarks from his open vehicle. You move away. He shoots at you (pistols?). You shoot him. His unit is - most likely - dead.
In the system as it is, if you make such a mistake, you`re dead. Itīs as simple as that - and this makes the game much more interesting to play.

Furthermore, all armies are balanced to this system - I already mentioned DE. If the enemy could actually SHOOT them after they moved but before they could charge, this army would be worthless. Similar things could be said about Terminators. Above that, the player going second would NEVER be charged - if an enemy unit moved into charge range, he would just move his unit 6" away.

So, no. The game is fine as it is. Sure, there are some unrealistic situations, but that`s the system we chose, and the armies are balanced to deal with this.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 11:22   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

How....how did you go all this time without knowing?


I thought that was the first thing everybody learnt...


But oh well, better learn now than never.


Also i too disagree, the game is much better this way rather than a LOTR style turn that you were playing. Because this way is much more unforgiving. Furthermore, going second is still with it's advantages, you're bale to respond to enemy movements and have the last turn no bars held counter attack.
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 11:26   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

Hmm.. and your gaming group has played 100+ battles the wrong way? I would've though page 14 of the rulebook is pretty clear about how the game turn goes.

As above, each player performs their moves, shooting, and assaults in one go. I'd agree with CmdrBonesaw that this makes the game much more tactical. There are certain advantages and disadvantages for taking first turn, and performing turns in such a manner allows Crisis Suit jumps to actually be effective, and for things like making a rapid advance, unloading, firing, and assaulting all in one turn.

I would actually consider the way you've been playing as ridiculously unbalanced - one player is ALWAYS following the other player, so are at a severe disadvantage. Whereas the 'normal' system, of one player doing all their actions first, then the other player, means that there is only an advantage in having first turn, or having the last turn of the game - in between its relatively balanced and both players will have equal oppurtunity to respond to the other players actions.
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 13:00   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

you do realise that its all in the rulebook... you know... and kinda obvious with that

this game isnt LOTR...

Quote:
That came as a real shock to us (half of the group knows already). Now the game seems quite unbalanced, as you cannot react to what your opponent is doing, which - as I said - takes away most of the actual planning. And now there is really no point in going second, as you can't maneuvre anyway.
I could go on about how stupid it is, but it's not going to do much good, does it? :/
you'd be surprised. i'd always elect to go second in games such as recon, where having the last turn in the game is extremely important. similarly, going second rocks when the other guy deploys behind cover and must move out first to come get you...

and to be honest, move/move/shoot/shoot/assault really hurts assaulty forces as all i have to do is withdraw my guys. and crisis suits. plus, player 2 is rarely gonna pull off an assault this way...

game is designed for player 1: move shoot assault, then player 2: move, shoot assault.
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 18:48   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

Yeah, never occured to me that this can be so... simple. Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to spot. Well, it is really not so different in tactics, some things require much more planning (defence), while the attack is much simpler.
I disagree though that you'd be never assaulted using LOTR system - I have a TON of experience, mind you You just dish out that extra volley of shots before being assaulted, but wise planning assaulter has no problems with catching you.
Afterthought: I think LOTR system is simply working very well with large battles, on a bit-too-small tables, and that's why we enjoyed it so much (we very rarely play anything below 2,5k, usually on a 6'x5' table).
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 18:54   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

Right... I guess I'll withhold any comments until we play the game as the rest of the world does

EDIT: I forgot to explain why we did that in the first place. Well, that's what we were shown on our first day by a redshirt... Simple as that. We've never questioned it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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Old 26 Nov 2007, 19:30   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Turn? What turn?

you don't have to change the way you play! its not like if you play as you are now some GW workers going to run over and slap your wrist...

if you prefer the way you play now, carry on! According to the 40k rulebook the most important rule of 40k is to have fun! (extra Cheesy i know but its true never the less)
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