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I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 04:51   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

My little brother, (who is extremely annoying to argue with and misinterprets rules all the time but cannot admit being wrong), has just brought this hypothetical scenario regarding the alotment of wounds in a squad with models each that possess different amounts of wounds, or an entire unit of models with more than 1 wound... say, 9 kroot and 1 shaper, or an IG hero officer and his 4 grunts for examples, or a space marine hero and his retinue.

He says that if a unit of 5 models with 2w a piece takes 3 hits, none of them will die but 3 of them will each take 1 wound. "even distribution". Is this right? as I understood it, you apply wounds to a model until it is dead and then apply leftovers to the next one and so on, hence 1 dead ogryn and 1 with 1 wound left. Am I wrong in thinking this?

I believe the rulebook is kind of vague about evenly distributing wounds with units with different amounts of wounds, while contradicting itself with the statement (p27) regarding models with multiple wounds. for instance, a 4w tau crisis suit commander with a drone unit that takes 3 wounds, cannot take 3 on the suit just to keep the drone alive to keep the invulnerable save, right? Likewise, the Guard player cannot put 2 wounds on his 3w commander just to keep all 4 of the command squad retinue still going. I hope.

Arg I hate arguing rules with my grouchy little brother. Sometimes it seems he only plays as an excuse to argue.

Please enlighten me I am confused.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 05:11   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

ALright to clear things up, here is where the confusion starts.

The rule book says that if shooting is done towards the unit, they may place the wounds on the grunts and leaving the squad leader out of it (or for that mater IC). However, if he choose to allocate a wound towards a squad leader or IC, in the next wounding phase, any wound that happens must first be allocated to the wounded multi-wound model before going on with the rest of the model.

Let's look at situation 1. I will be using kroots without any cover save to make things easier to understand.

There are 6 kroot with 1 shaper in it and the opponent is able to get 1 wounds on the kroots. So the player can either opt to give the shaper one wound or to tak out one model.

In the next opponent turn, the opponent manage to score another three wound on the squad. Since the shaper have already suffered one wound, you need to allocate all the wounds on the shaper before you move on. SO at last you willhave one dead shaper and one dead kroot.

However, that situation only applies if there is multi-wound models in the squad does not outnumber the number of models that have one wound.

If the squad consist of units with only multi-wound (eg: crisis suit, ogryns), then it is a different tale. The number of wounds are applied to one model until it is dead, and the you move on to the next model, and if there is some more wounds after the second model is dead you move on again until all wounds are gone.

I hope this clears the whole thing.

Edit: I forgot about this scenario, which could explain what you brother is trying o pull off.

Let's say that there are 5 2-wound models and one single wound model. If the opponent manage to wound 2 wounds. he can either take out one multi-wound model, or takle out the single wond model and give one of the two-wound model a single wound.

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Old 10 Nov 2007, 05:17   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper


Let's look at situation 1. I will be using kroots without any cover save to make things easier to understand.

There are 6 kroot with 1 shaper in it and the opponent is able to get 1 wounds on the kroots. So the player can either opt to give the shaper one wound or to take out one model.

In the next opponent turn, the opponent manage to score another three wound on the squad. Since the shaper have already suffered one wound, you need to allocate all the wounds on the shaper before you move on. SO at last you will have one dead shaper and one dead kroot.
Are you sure about that? The section of the book that says "You must remove whole multiple-wound models from the unit where possible" is only when there are multiple models with more then one wound in the unit not if there is a single model with more then one wound in the unit.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 05:32   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
He says that if a unit of 5 models with 2w a piece takes 3 hits, none of them will die but 3 of them will each take 1 wound. "even distribution". Is this right? as I understood it, you apply wounds to a model until it is dead and then apply leftovers to the next one and so on, hence 1 dead ogryn and 1 with 1 wound left. Am I wrong in thinking this?
Your interpritation here is the correct one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
I believe the rulebook is kind of vague about evenly distributing wounds with units with different amounts of wounds, while contradicting itself with the statement (p27) regarding models with multiple wounds. for instance, a 4w tau crisis suit commander with a drone unit that takes 3 wounds, cannot take 3 on the suit just to keep the drone alive to keep the invulnerable save, right? Likewise, the Guard player cannot put 2 wounds on his 3w commander just to keep all 4 of the command squad retinue still going. I hope.
The tau crisis suit can take all the wounds to keep the drone alive, however it actualy depends on how you allocated the hits. If the unit took 3 bolter wounds then the commander could take all the wounds.However if a tau commander with one drone took two Str 7 AP 2 plasma hits. Then he can only allocate one hit to the drone, if the drone fails the invuneable save then the drone dies. Either way the commander takes one wound.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 06:52   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
ALright to clear things up, here is where the confusion starts.

The rule book says that if shooting is done towards the unit, they may place the wounds on the grunts and leaving the squad leader out of it (or for that mater IC). However, if he choose to allocate a wound towards a squad leader or IC, in the next wounding phase, any wound that happens must first be allocated to the wounded multi-wound model before going on with the rest of the model.

Let's look at situation 1. I will be using kroots without any cover save to make things easier to understand.

There are 6 kroot with 1 shaper in it and the opponent is able to get 1 wounds on the kroots. So the player can either opt to give the shaper one wound or to tak out one model.

In the next opponent turn, the opponent manage to score another three wound on the squad. Since the shaper have already suffered one wound, you need to allocate all the wounds on the shaper before you move on. SO at last you willhave one dead shaper and one dead kroot.

However, that situation only applies if there is multi-wound models in the squad does not outnumber the number of models that have one wound.

If the squad consist of units with only multi-wound (eg: crisis suit, ogryns), then it is a different tale. The number of wounds are applied to one model until it is dead, and the you move on to the next model, and if there is some more wounds after the second model is dead you move on again until all wounds are gone.

I hope this clears the whole thing.

Edit: I forgot about this scenario, which could explain what you brother is trying o pull off.

Let's say that there are 5 2-wound models and one single wound model. If the opponent manage to wound 2 wounds. he can either take out one multi-wound model, or takle out the single wond model and give one of the two-wound model a single wound.

I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect. The book specifically says a squad of "Multi-wound models." Kroot with a shaper have only one multiwound model. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with taking two wounds on the shaper. I dunno... Maybe that's taking RAW too far, but I'm not the only one who takes advantage of this rule. I mean, with a pair of Crisis suits, I know that one of them has to take 2 wounds and die if it suffers three wounds, but with a group of 1-wound models with only one multi-wound model, I'm pretty sure you can take wounds on the multi-wound one, then go on to assigning wounds to the single-wound ones.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 07:17   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

I think the correct interpretation would be 'you must keep the number of wounded models within an unit as low as possible', but I cannot point where it is exactly written. In my oppinion, this is the spirit of the rules, because it minimises the need for wound markers, making the game more clear.
We are playing like this here, and make exceptions only when wounds were specifically allocated at some models (for example, amount of wounds taken exceeded the unit size and the multi-wound commander was called to take an armor save, which he failed).
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 13:10   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

One other thing to keep in mind:

When you're sorting out wounds, you have to roll saves first. Therefore, you dole out one wound per model until it either loops around, or you run out of wounds to allocate. Then you roll your saves. You may only apply wounds/remove models that match the type of save rolled for the wound. So, in the crisis/drones scenario, if he is accompanied by gun drones, any wounds rolled on their 4+ can only be applied to them, whereas any wounds rolled on his 3+ apply only to the crisis suit. The same goes for if the unit is partially in cover: if you take your wounds on the guys in cover, you may only remove the models that would have had a cover save.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 16:01   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

So y'all are saying that you have to put as many wounds on a model until it dies, right? So if I have a unit of three broadsides and two shield drones, and that unit takes 3 lascannon hits, then I can put all three hits on a shield drone until it dies, move on to the next shield drone then, and finally if both the shield drones die and there is another lascannon shot left, then one of the broadsides will die. I thought you were supposed to equally allocate wounds, so with the same scenario as above, I would have to put one wound on each drone, and one wound on a broadside.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 16:49   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

1 Wound models with a Multi-Wound, a.k.a Squad and Sergeant:

You must remove whole models where possible. Thus, you will normally remove single-wound squad members but if you decide to wound the Sergeant then you need to finish him off before wounding any more members.

Squad entirely composed of Multi-Wounders, a.k.a Various Elite Choices:

You must remove whole models where possible. For example, a unit of 3 Tyranid Warriors takes 3 wounds. You cannot choose to give each one a wound, leaving you with all 3 Warriors down to 1 wound but no removed models. You must instead remove a full 2-wound Warrior and then wound another once, leaving you with 2 Warriors, one of which is at half-Wounds.

In previous editions you were allowed to 'spread the wounds around', which was especially cheesy with armies such as Thousand Sons; a squad of 10 of the Marines would have to take 10 'free' wounds before you actually hurt the squad's shooting power. Fortunately this is gone now and whole models must be removed when possible. Put simply, if you wound a model, you must finish wounding him before moving on to the next.
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Old 10 Nov 2007, 17:11   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

I couldn't tell you the page but I'm pretty sure that the new rulebook also says something about everyone having to have 1 wound before a model can have 2. As far as I understood it, the rulebook says both and therefore the way we play it at my store is that you can choose how to spread the wounds.
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